What was the build date of your car. Mine was June 2010 i think. I purchased it in December 2010.
Mine is a March 2010 build - Picked it up in April and has now done 22,000 k's - nothing has ever been mentioned about the calibration so maybe I should bring that up with them next time I'm at the dealer. Maybe there should be a new thread started as some users may not realise this discussion is taking place under the Diesel Particulate Filter thread.
Diesel Particulate Filter - DPF
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newbeesubee
- Junior Member
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:37 pm
- Location: NSW
Hi,
I too have experienced the "shudder" at around 2000rmp in 5th gear going up hill, also @ 2000rpm in 6th gear on the flat. Subaru ran tests but could find no faults. I have had the car for a year and this problem appeared in the last couple of months.
I have also had issues with the DPF warning light comming on. I can usually deal with it by driving to a stretch of road where I can legally drive at 80km/h to activate the regeneration. Did 2 trips to the Central Coast and back on the weekend and would expect that to have thoroughly cleaned the DPF. Today after only 2 days of short trips the light came on again but it started flashing before I could get to a suitable stretch of road to do the burn. Drove it straight to the Subaru service centre where they will do a regeneration. What a pain!! I have read the other posts and these seem to be common problems.
I love my Outback but I am very frustrated with these issues in such a new car!
I too have experienced the "shudder" at around 2000rmp in 5th gear going up hill, also @ 2000rpm in 6th gear on the flat. Subaru ran tests but could find no faults. I have had the car for a year and this problem appeared in the last couple of months.
I have also had issues with the DPF warning light comming on. I can usually deal with it by driving to a stretch of road where I can legally drive at 80km/h to activate the regeneration. Did 2 trips to the Central Coast and back on the weekend and would expect that to have thoroughly cleaned the DPF. Today after only 2 days of short trips the light came on again but it started flashing before I could get to a suitable stretch of road to do the burn. Drove it straight to the Subaru service centre where they will do a regeneration. What a pain!! I have read the other posts and these seem to be common problems.
I love my Outback but I am very frustrated with these issues in such a new car!
Outback Diesel
Hi There,
I have had the same problem with my car. My DPF was 135% full and I could have been up for a new filter @ $5k which wouldn't have been covered under warranty.
I emailed Subaru and they said I wasn't driving long enough distances or driving in the wrong gear. I drive about 35,000km/year, a lot of drives 4 hours or more. I only drive in 2nd or 3rd gear around my local town to keep the revs up.
I can't believe they can sell a car that is not designed to be driven short distances.
I have also experienced the 'shudder' when driving in 3rd or 4th gear. Subaru dismissed this problem and said they hadn't heard anything about this.
Overall I am not very happy with the customer service from Subaru.
I have had the same problem with my car. My DPF was 135% full and I could have been up for a new filter @ $5k which wouldn't have been covered under warranty.
I emailed Subaru and they said I wasn't driving long enough distances or driving in the wrong gear. I drive about 35,000km/year, a lot of drives 4 hours or more. I only drive in 2nd or 3rd gear around my local town to keep the revs up.
I can't believe they can sell a car that is not designed to be driven short distances.
I have also experienced the 'shudder' when driving in 3rd or 4th gear. Subaru dismissed this problem and said they hadn't heard anything about this.
Overall I am not very happy with the customer service from Subaru.
I have a Forester Diesel manufactured about Jun 2010. I have had the filter once at about 11,000km. I run up and down a freeway everyday at 100km for about 20km.(part of the reason fir buying a diesel.
I took it to subaru and they perfomed a manual burn and siad I had to change the oil which we did. Driving home yesterday I had the filter light flash again ! This was after coming off the freeway. The car has since only done another 5000km.
After reading here it sounds like I need to keep the diesel above 3000rpm to make sure it doesn't clog. Any other suggestions ?
I took it to subaru and they perfomed a manual burn and siad I had to change the oil which we did. Driving home yesterday I had the filter light flash again ! This was after coming off the freeway. The car has since only done another 5000km.
After reading here it sounds like I need to keep the diesel above 3000rpm to make sure it doesn't clog. Any other suggestions ?
well , i thought i was going nuts ... my OUTBACK has less than 10,000K it its been back to SUBARU 4 times !!!! they still cant explain why its happening .... i drive a Hilux TD and never had a problem at low or high speed or revs ...i wish they mentioned that the SUBARU diesel is for highways only !!!! very disappointing ....
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discopotato03
- Senior Member
- Posts: 2134
- Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:29 am
- Location: Sydney
I wouldn't blame FHI , I blame the world wide Greens movement for pushing unrealistic expectations with petrol and diesel engines emissions standards .
There is an increasing number of late model diesel powered cars that aren't going to be worth a cracker when they have a few miles and years on them . Diesel engines have always been expensive things to service and god help those up for engine and fuel systems overhauls because all the consumption savings come crashing down around them .
When these oilers get on a bit and start using a bit more fuel and letting oil past the rings and guides these Bunsen burners are very likely going to be a major PITA .
A .
There is an increasing number of late model diesel powered cars that aren't going to be worth a cracker when they have a few miles and years on them . Diesel engines have always been expensive things to service and god help those up for engine and fuel systems overhauls because all the consumption savings come crashing down around them .
When these oilers get on a bit and start using a bit more fuel and letting oil past the rings and guides these Bunsen burners are very likely going to be a major PITA .
A .
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Gannon
- Senior Member
- Posts: 4580
- Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:00 am
- Location: Bowraville, Mid Nth Coast, NSW
Im pretty sure that because the Hilux is classed as a commercial vehicle, it does not require a DPF.astav wrote: i drive a Hilux TD and never had a problem at low or high speed or revs
I wonder if somebody were to temporally remove the DPF, we would see if it makes a difference?
Slightly off topic, but i saw a Hyundai i30 CRD start yesterday morning. Quite a bit of grey smoke came out the exhaust as it idled for nearly a minute. I was very surprised.
Current rides: 2016 Mitsubishi Triton GLS & 2004 Forester X
Ongoing Project/Toy: 1987 RX Turbo EA82T, Speeduino ECU, Coil-pack ignition, 440cc Injectors, KONI adjustale front struts, Hybrid L Series/ Liberty AWD 5sp
Past rides: 92 L series turbo converted wagon, 83 Leone GL Sedan, 2004 Liberty GT Sedan & 2001 Outback
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Ongoing Project/Toy: 1987 RX Turbo EA82T, Speeduino ECU, Coil-pack ignition, 440cc Injectors, KONI adjustale front struts, Hybrid L Series/ Liberty AWD 5sp
Past rides: 92 L series turbo converted wagon, 83 Leone GL Sedan, 2004 Liberty GT Sedan & 2001 Outback
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discopotato03
- Senior Member
- Posts: 2134
- Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:29 am
- Location: Sydney
They've been fitting those cretins on SiTec and other models of Isuzu trucks for a few years now and I would not be surprised if Hino and others are doing it too .
More electronic controls , more you cannot fix by the side of the road and its this side of things that long term will give these kinds of vehicles a shorter economic life than most think .
Its going to be interesting to see how generally light duty vehicles are going to get these things hot enough to do the job and not blouse out on no you can't use me cause I'm at the therapist regening out .
No if it were me I'd stick to a petrol vehicle because they are a better known quantity though for how long who knows .
A .
More electronic controls , more you cannot fix by the side of the road and its this side of things that long term will give these kinds of vehicles a shorter economic life than most think .
Its going to be interesting to see how generally light duty vehicles are going to get these things hot enough to do the job and not blouse out on no you can't use me cause I'm at the therapist regening out .
No if it were me I'd stick to a petrol vehicle because they are a better known quantity though for how long who knows .
A .
Ok I took the car to the dealer. Looks like they stuffed up. Surprise Surprise.
The Oil ECU was not reset when they did the service. They have done this and now
no DPF light. However they also said if it comes on again the ECU will need to be reset.
From another forum ...
However I have read some details that the ECU needs to have a counter reset whenever the oil is changed so that the programming for the DPF regens can run correctly.
Apparantly not doing this can cause problems in the DPF.
Does this mean nobody besides a Subaru dealer can effectively change the oil?
So I have a number of options.
1. Don't do the changes - leave it for the dealer. Not a real problem for now, but as the vehicle gets older I would like to do my own servicing.
2. Don't worry - do the oil change and dont reset the counter. If every second change is done at the dealer and they reset the counter does this really matter ?
3. Get an OBD II tool and reset the counter ? I'm not sure how to do this, some googling has not found any method for this vehicle - you can get tools for many European models. The Scangauge II seems to be able to send commands to the ECU but I'd have to know what commands to send... maybe in a couple of years the aftermarket tool providers will have developed a tool for this...
The Oil ECU was not reset when they did the service. They have done this and now
no DPF light. However they also said if it comes on again the ECU will need to be reset.
From another forum ...
However I have read some details that the ECU needs to have a counter reset whenever the oil is changed so that the programming for the DPF regens can run correctly.
Apparantly not doing this can cause problems in the DPF.
Does this mean nobody besides a Subaru dealer can effectively change the oil?
So I have a number of options.
1. Don't do the changes - leave it for the dealer. Not a real problem for now, but as the vehicle gets older I would like to do my own servicing.
2. Don't worry - do the oil change and dont reset the counter. If every second change is done at the dealer and they reset the counter does this really matter ?
3. Get an OBD II tool and reset the counter ? I'm not sure how to do this, some googling has not found any method for this vehicle - you can get tools for many European models. The Scangauge II seems to be able to send commands to the ECU but I'd have to know what commands to send... maybe in a couple of years the aftermarket tool providers will have developed a tool for this...
Hi all, i have also had the "Shudder" problem. I'm relieved it's not just me and can be more confident next time I tell them about it. I have not had the shudder as regular as some of you but it nearly always occurs in 6th gear doing over 100k/ph on a flat road when I start to go up a slight incline, it loses power, the speed drops right off and I have to change gears down before I can increase speed again. It's not much of an incline and should easily coast by in 6th. It has happened to me once in a lower gear, 4th I think, and was really bad and obvious to all in the car. It did not happen for a few weeks, then got it again at usual spot, just after that the DPF light started flashing and 3 other lights came on as well. Took it to closest Subaru Dealer and the DPF soot accumulation was at 135% They did regen and was told it was not covered under warranty. They did the service as well cause he said that i would need oil replaced etc anyway. I had 20,000k on clock and was not due for another 5000k/2 months. I had no warning before this. The DPF light has only come on once before for a few minutes only, just a few days after the 12500 service. Have found your forum while looking up info on the Diesel Particulate Filter. the service guy said it needs to be driven at higher revs to burn soot, at least 15 mins continous driving without braking to clean dpf regularly. I think the shudder may be linked to the DPF?
I'm really annoyed they have not fixed this under warranty, I feel I have not done anything wrong, have had service on time, had no warning then suddenly light flashing. They have not said you have to drive at high revs when we bought the car and the light has not been coming on to show that it needs a burn.
I'm really annoyed they have not fixed this under warranty, I feel I have not done anything wrong, have had service on time, had no warning then suddenly light flashing. They have not said you have to drive at high revs when we bought the car and the light has not been coming on to show that it needs a burn.
Hi there!
I know several people constantly driving soft and low rpms without any problems in Europe. None of them has ever seen DPF light (except for ignition-on test). Personally I do lots of short trips, too.
So cannot agree to generic argument about diesels are meant for medium/long trips only...
Maybe some issues depend on climate?
Dealerships often don't employ modern-tech savvy personnel, relying on distributor instead.
Anyway, I strongly recommend data logging, especially when experiencing issues!
A simple but sufficient OBD-II interface for logging is only a few bucks, you'll need a laptop or netbook (with USB port) of course.
Then we can try to help by looking at recorded data.
Such data is rather anonymous by the way, no need to tell car plate, VIN etc.
Theoretically, one can log thousands of different values, getting to know what the engine control module (ECU) is thinking and doing.
You'll see items like soot accumulation ratio, DPF pressure difference, exhaust temps, whether active regeneration is occurring, regen counter, ash accumulation and so on.
Btw, my active DPF regens take around 12 minutes to complete.
The only shudder I know of and experience myself are very subtle. These only occur when active DPF regeneration starts and ends because turbo control and manifold air pressure are changed at these switch points. At low power demand I get negative MAP (relative to atmospheric pressure) in regen mode, turbo spooling at unusually low rpms, seems to aid DPF regen process.
Free RomRaider software can log diesel specific stuff if you use proper definition files.
http://www.romraider.com (also see what interface hardware is supported)
subdiesel.wordpress.com
(not affiliated with Subaru/FHI or anything)
Our diesel specific group will blog some more details about DPF light in the future. We've traced some of the ECU code, know conditions that matter for DPF light etc.
Basically, DPF light is steady at first.
If ECU got angry (some conditions can trigger that right away), DPF light flashes.
I know several people constantly driving soft and low rpms without any problems in Europe. None of them has ever seen DPF light (except for ignition-on test). Personally I do lots of short trips, too.
So cannot agree to generic argument about diesels are meant for medium/long trips only...
Maybe some issues depend on climate?
Dealerships often don't employ modern-tech savvy personnel, relying on distributor instead.
Anyway, I strongly recommend data logging, especially when experiencing issues!
A simple but sufficient OBD-II interface for logging is only a few bucks, you'll need a laptop or netbook (with USB port) of course.
Then we can try to help by looking at recorded data.
Such data is rather anonymous by the way, no need to tell car plate, VIN etc.
Theoretically, one can log thousands of different values, getting to know what the engine control module (ECU) is thinking and doing.
You'll see items like soot accumulation ratio, DPF pressure difference, exhaust temps, whether active regeneration is occurring, regen counter, ash accumulation and so on.
Btw, my active DPF regens take around 12 minutes to complete.
The only shudder I know of and experience myself are very subtle. These only occur when active DPF regeneration starts and ends because turbo control and manifold air pressure are changed at these switch points. At low power demand I get negative MAP (relative to atmospheric pressure) in regen mode, turbo spooling at unusually low rpms, seems to aid DPF regen process.
Free RomRaider software can log diesel specific stuff if you use proper definition files.
http://www.romraider.com (also see what interface hardware is supported)
subdiesel.wordpress.com
(not affiliated with Subaru/FHI or anything)
Our diesel specific group will blog some more details about DPF light in the future. We've traced some of the ECU code, know conditions that matter for DPF light etc.
Basically, DPF light is steady at first.
If ECU got angry (some conditions can trigger that right away), DPF light flashes.
My DPF light came on twice yesterday, but it came on flashing, not lit up constantly. This happened both times after i'd been driving for at least 45mins on the highway! I figured it needed a regen for some reason and continued to drive around for a while over 2500rpm until it went out. I drive 200kms a day on the highway to work and back and could not see how my DPF could be clogged.
Anyway, this morning it came on flashing again halfway down to Brisbane and i said "screw work" and drove straight to the dealership. About 10k's from the dealership the engine went into limp mode and i was fuming!
I was booked in for the 12.5k service next week, but they decided to do it today. I explained to the service guys what had been happening and the first thing they asked me was "how do you drive it"? I told them i don't baby it (which i don't!) and am well aware of issues with DPF's on other makes etc. due to too much soft driving. They also said straight away that if anything to do with the DPF needs replacing or the DPF itself is broken, that they will not cover it with warranty!? WTF is with that? Fair enough if you get a bad tank of fuel it's not the manufacturers problem (i keep all fuel receipts and fill up at the same servo just in case), but damn this is a problem with the vehicle. If these new diesels need to be revved hard, and not lugged around, then why don't they inform you this when you lay down the cash to buy one? And why do we have such a tall sixth gear, if lugging the engine off boost is no good for it? If the DPF clogging up is an issue, then what are they going to do if they introduce an auto tranny to the range?
I'm rambling now. Anyway when i picked up the suby they explained to me that it was not an issue with the DPF, but with oil dilution. The ECU had been introducing extra fuel to start a regen and it had failed for some reason. I had noticed over the last few weeks that my oil level seemed high. I tried to dip it at various times and it always read much higher than the high mark. They reset the "oil dilution ratio", told me the ECU is "still learning" and that by the next service it should be fine. I have to keep a close eye on my oil level to determine if i get any increase in level until the next service.
So according to the foreman at subaru......when the DPF light comes on, but does not flash, it means you need to drive around and regen it.
When the DPF light comes on flashing straight away it is an oil dilution problem.
I love this vehicle and the torque and economy of the boxer diesel, but all this new technology with common-rail turbo diesels still has not got my trust. If all else fails i can always rely on my 31 year-old diesel landcruiser, which will run underwater and i can fix myself.
Anyway, this morning it came on flashing again halfway down to Brisbane and i said "screw work" and drove straight to the dealership. About 10k's from the dealership the engine went into limp mode and i was fuming!
I was booked in for the 12.5k service next week, but they decided to do it today. I explained to the service guys what had been happening and the first thing they asked me was "how do you drive it"? I told them i don't baby it (which i don't!) and am well aware of issues with DPF's on other makes etc. due to too much soft driving. They also said straight away that if anything to do with the DPF needs replacing or the DPF itself is broken, that they will not cover it with warranty!? WTF is with that? Fair enough if you get a bad tank of fuel it's not the manufacturers problem (i keep all fuel receipts and fill up at the same servo just in case), but damn this is a problem with the vehicle. If these new diesels need to be revved hard, and not lugged around, then why don't they inform you this when you lay down the cash to buy one? And why do we have such a tall sixth gear, if lugging the engine off boost is no good for it? If the DPF clogging up is an issue, then what are they going to do if they introduce an auto tranny to the range?
I'm rambling now. Anyway when i picked up the suby they explained to me that it was not an issue with the DPF, but with oil dilution. The ECU had been introducing extra fuel to start a regen and it had failed for some reason. I had noticed over the last few weeks that my oil level seemed high. I tried to dip it at various times and it always read much higher than the high mark. They reset the "oil dilution ratio", told me the ECU is "still learning" and that by the next service it should be fine. I have to keep a close eye on my oil level to determine if i get any increase in level until the next service.
So according to the foreman at subaru......when the DPF light comes on, but does not flash, it means you need to drive around and regen it.
When the DPF light comes on flashing straight away it is an oil dilution problem.
I love this vehicle and the torque and economy of the boxer diesel, but all this new technology with common-rail turbo diesels still has not got my trust. If all else fails i can always rely on my 31 year-old diesel landcruiser, which will run underwater and i can fix myself.
The only thing that is actually happening with this DPF/Shudder issue is that potential buyers are either holding onto what the have already or buying something else.
It's certainly not looking good for Subaru as far their foray into the diesel field goes, they need to solve/fix this issue and bloody fast.
P.S. How do get rid of this for good?
It's certainly not looking good for Subaru as far their foray into the diesel field goes, they need to solve/fix this issue and bloody fast.
P.S. How do get rid of this for good?
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Peter
Yes, that's what the manual says, too.Falco80 wrote: So according to the foreman at subaru......when the DPF light comes on, but does not flash, it means you need to drive around and regen it.
Confirmed, that one we know very well from looking into ECU software.Falco80 wrote: When the DPF light comes on flashing straight away it is an oil dilution problem.
Exact trigger condition (in my software version) is: "oil dilution greater than or equal 10 %"
But DPF light is 'overloaded' as we call it - similar to Malfunction Indicator Light you don't know exactly the reason as multiple ones can trigger the light (both steady and flashing modes).
If you had a data log you could watch parameter "oil dilution ratio [%]" to confirm. Frankly I've never seen Boxer Diesel data showing more than 5% oil dilution.
Btw, logging does not have side effects (besides a bit human work to set it up) to the engine. People do that for many years now. OBD standard requires some data, mostly related to emissions though. Requesting data is additional work for the control unit but they're fast enough and engine operations have higher priority anyway.
Hi There,
We have still been having DPF/Oil dilution problems....6 visits to dealer in 3 months. Last one resulting in oil dilution at 11% only 2700kms after oil change. Oil and filter changed and ECU erased and replaced with new data pak.
I have seen people talking about logging data via OBD and was wondering if anyone had more info on how to do this and the best gear to do it?
Can it be done real time or is it a stop and download job?
Thanks
Phil
We have still been having DPF/Oil dilution problems....6 visits to dealer in 3 months. Last one resulting in oil dilution at 11% only 2700kms after oil change. Oil and filter changed and ECU erased and replaced with new data pak.
I have seen people talking about logging data via OBD and was wondering if anyone had more info on how to do this and the best gear to do it?
Can it be done real time or is it a stop and download job?
Thanks
Phil
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ForesterDiesel
- Junior Member
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:34 pm
- Location: NSW
And is there an iPhone app and cable for it? Since the phone is always with me, this would be the easiest thing to use.Diesel OB wrote:Hi There,
We have still been having DPF/Oil dilution problems....6 visits to dealer in 3 months. Last one resulting in oil dilution at 11% only 2700kms after oil change. Oil and filter changed and ECU erased and replaced with new data pak.
I have seen people talking about logging data via OBD and was wondering if anyone had more info on how to do this and the best gear to do it?
Can it be done real time or is it a stop and download job?
Thanks
Phil
Data sampling is real-time. To check rather static parameters like regen counter, oil dilution, soot etc. you can retrieve those with engine off. Ignition on is a must of course - control unit must be powered.
There's at least one iPhone OBDII app: Rev
http://devtoaster.com/products/rev/index.html
Unfortunately control units only report some data over generic OBDII protocol!
http://subdiesel.wordpress.com/generic/ ... ls/obd-ii/
As you can see - NO oil dilution ratio, NO DPF soot accumulation amount, ...
Only Subaru specific software (SSM protocol) will get you MUCH more, ex PC software like RomRaider or FreeSSM.
RomRaider is good, can write data into CSV text file (for import in spreadsheet app), but it's a heavy Java app, depends on communication libraries, haven't heard about success on phone or PDA devices.
These days, engines can't do anything without software so its quite an important detail for comparison.
One can read version info via SSM (ROMID) or OBDII (calibration ID) software, though.
There's at least one iPhone OBDII app: Rev
http://devtoaster.com/products/rev/index.html
Unfortunately control units only report some data over generic OBDII protocol!
http://subdiesel.wordpress.com/generic/ ... ls/obd-ii/
As you can see - NO oil dilution ratio, NO DPF soot accumulation amount, ...
Only Subaru specific software (SSM protocol) will get you MUCH more, ex PC software like RomRaider or FreeSSM.
RomRaider is good, can write data into CSV text file (for import in spreadsheet app), but it's a heavy Java app, depends on communication libraries, haven't heard about success on phone or PDA devices.
- Euro4: AFAIK logging on all models is working fine.
- Euro5: Might use different control units, reports indicate that mentioned SSM software won't work.
These days, engines can't do anything without software so its quite an important detail for comparison.
One can read version info via SSM (ROMID) or OBDII (calibration ID) software, though.
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ForesterDiesel
- Junior Member
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:34 pm
- Location: NSW