run ya car on water!

artrixx · Post by **artrixx** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:28 pm

http://www.fuelfromh2o.com.au have a look at this site. also type in joe cell into goole or youtube.............

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:34 pm

pffft to that!

MY_STI · Post by **MY_STI** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:08 pm

I call BS.
It cannot be done. Period.
Google 'perpetual motion machine'.

stinky · Post by **stinky** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:49 am

I heard that subarino frequently runs his car on water ( or is that in water? ).

BaronVonChickenPants · Post by **BaronVonChickenPants** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:56 am

All it does is use electric current to seperate the water into oxygen and hydrogen, theoretically you can run an internal combustion engine on hydrogen but the practicallity of storing and control the hydrogen is not something to be taken lightly, it would not take much to turn you and your car into an all mighty fire ball.

2 other issues:
1. It is not a quick process, it takes quite a long time to even seperate a small amount of the 2 gases, I'm not sure of the power demands required but I don't think it is all that high.

2. Hydrogen has a very low energy density compared to conventional fuels, from what I've read 60 litres will get you about 200km, depending on the vehicle of course, but this also means that you'll never produce enough energy from it to make the seperation process self sufficient.

/end waffle

Jordan.

MY_STI · Post by **MY_STI** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:50 pm

Running an internal combustion engine on hydrogen is relativly easy, there are commecial vehicles running on hydrogen in other countries. Of course there are things that need to be altered for better running and longer life.

The problem with this system is that it is 'on demand'. The theory is that it that hydrogen is produced as its needed.

Which is all well and good, however if you use 1kW of electrical power to seperate the water, you don't magically get 10kW worth of hydrogen. In fact, with a home made seperator, you would get closer to 100w (0.1kw) of hydrogen.

Buts lets assume we have some mythical seperator that is 100% efficient, and there are no other losses in the system.
We have a super aerodynamic car that only needs 2kW to maintain 110km/h on the highway.
To run totally on hydrogen, 2kW of electrial power at 13.8v will require 145 Amps! There is a 5A fuse in the main suppy pictured on the site.
Even with a 5% hydrogen/petrol mix, 7.2 Amps would be required. And this is with 100% efficiency.

So the setup pictured, again being generous with losses, but not seperator efficiency, will produce about 7 Watts (0.07 kW) of hydrogen at full stick.
Which, with the 2kw crusing car, this is a 0.35% mix of hydrogen/petrol. In reality it would be even less.
Its also funny because there is no control system in their setup for varied engine conditions, its working as hard as it can, all the time. "no black box or circuits" they say. Most advocates of such systems at least have some kind electrical control circuit.

And then the electrical power has to come from somewhere, the alternator, which is powered by the crank, which is connected to the knee bone.... in short Petrol.

Can crunch some numbers if anyone is interested but a mere 5% mix of hydrogen/petrol will increase and NOT decrease your fuel economy. (ie more litres per 100km). And its substantial.

Post by **Alex** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:55 pm

stinky wrote:I heard that subarino frequently runs his car on water ( or is that in water? ).

yes it does run on water, but its from a very very isolated spring in the mountain region of India. Very rare!

alex

PeeJay · Post by **PeeJay** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:54 pm

I did breifly look at hydrogen, it's just not possible. (at home)

Ethanol is far more pratical. I've been looking into building a small ethanol plant but I'm not convinced that it's worth it yet.

Gannon · Post by **Gannon** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:49 pm

I agree that ethanol may one day have its purpose, look at brazil.
Just remember that ethanol needs to run much richer than petrol, closer to 6:1 A/F ratio

aspro · Post by **aspro** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:52 pm

We've been running busses on it over here in Perth for quite a while now.
Its done very well. http://www.gdc.asn.au/ecobus/ The technology for cars will come Im sure.
In the mean time
"Remember the Hindenburg":p

MY_STI · Post by **MY_STI** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:23 am

Nice, didn't realise those busses were in Aus.
Difference with the bus is that it is fuel cell based, which produces electricity, which then runs an electric motor.
No infernal combustion engine. Also it would have a tank of hydrogen, not water.

There was a car modified to run on hydrogen by some tassie uni students that was driven in Targa last year, never really followed it though.
The problem with burning hydrogen is it produces very hot steam that is highly corrosive to an engine. So preferably everthing should be ceramic or teflon coated, and these coatings wear relativly quickly.

I see no reason why hydrogen is any more dangerous than lpg, sure it burns a lot faster, but it is also lighter than air.

Ethanol is fairly easy to make, although it would probably be more cost effective to sell it in bottles and buy fuel.

Bio-diesel is also an easy at home alternative. Just don't use it in a modern direct injection engine.

My next project will be an electric car, probably a little fiori or something.

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:22 pm

If you watch the videos attached you'll see one aimed at the 'skeptics' and shows the system producing hydrogen..... not a lot of hydrogen

I reckon that what it does is confuses the O2 sensor to make it run leaner than normal hence fuel saving.... 15-45% they claim...

I just don't think people (ie the stupid general public) understand chemistry enough to know how much all these crazy fuel saving devices really are!