Could it be something in the design that real world experience show up that the mathematical design does not - such as that it could be the H4 engine design being flat doesn't allow for long loading at such low revs before a small vibration ends up resonating through the engine, gearbox and body of the vehicle?
I can see how it would lose all torque while this shudder is happening - presuming the diesel has a knock sensor - it must be going nuts when this happens!
It sort of sounds like the timing is being advanced too far for the best combustion in the chamber but starts it too far before the piston comes up to top dead centre creating a situation where the burn is expanding while the piston is trying to compress the expanding gases/mist that are starting to get near the peak of the burn...
I dunno but these are my thoughts. Also another reason why you wait for the second series to come out before you buy new. Second hand you can find out the issues without shelling out your coin via others having the "real world teething issues"
Sorry to say but it looks like subaru will have to do something about this on a large scale, until then you may just have to change your driving style/habits to avoid the "shudder zone". I'm hoping for you that this is not subaru's way of solving the problem.
All the best
Cheers
Bennie
2010 Diesel Drivetrain shudder
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littlewhiteute
- Junior Member
- Posts: 623
- Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:22 am
- Location: Brisbane
At last somebody agrees.MY11OBD wrote:I am thinking its a ECU, programming or timming issue, it does not seem to be widespread so will be difficult to get Subaru involved.
For others who have had this, what rpm do you change gears?
It seems everybody on here than owns one has this problem, so Subaru must know about it.
Regards
Gary
Gary
With the number of people reporting this issue, it does certainly appear to be systemic. In other words every vehicle is capable of having this vibration excited if the initial setup conditions are correct. Folks, this is good news as it means there is a greater chance of nailing down the problem since so many people can demonstrate/report the issue. What is also important is that it is being excited under the same conditions, meaning it is the same problem. There is also more weight in numbers when it comes to convincing Subaru that there is a design problem.
I am a little suprised this problem has arrisen as the Diesel has been teethed in Europe for the last 3-4years albeit Euro4 emission standards. Which is what leads me to think it is something specific to the Euro5 standard and it's implementation. I have managed to find two reports in Europe regarding this issue.
On a good note, I took the family for a spin out to Jenolan Caves & Oberon (NSW central Tablelands) and the car drove like a dream, no shudders. Probably due to the lack of long freeway like straights. Lots of up and down, hills and gears!
BTW, I am using Caltex Vortex Diesel and Woolworths/Caltex standard Diesel.
I am a little suprised this problem has arrisen as the Diesel has been teethed in Europe for the last 3-4years albeit Euro4 emission standards. Which is what leads me to think it is something specific to the Euro5 standard and it's implementation. I have managed to find two reports in Europe regarding this issue.
On a good note, I took the family for a spin out to Jenolan Caves & Oberon (NSW central Tablelands) and the car drove like a dream, no shudders. Probably due to the lack of long freeway like straights. Lots of up and down, hills and gears!
BTW, I am using Caltex Vortex Diesel and Woolworths/Caltex standard Diesel.
2010 Diesel Problem
I have exactly the same problem as described by a number of members. The dealer claims they've never heard of the problem!
I generally use Shell fuel.
I generally use Shell fuel.
Re Fuel: My dealer advised to run Shell or BP diesel as they are NOT Bio-diesel. Caltex and Woolworths branded fuels are Bio-Diesel which is a 'no-no' - even the vortex diesel contains up to 2% bio fuel - l rang Caltex and they advised that even though the vortex diesel contains 2% bio they are not required to display this at the pump as the amount is so small. I've noticed that the Woolworths Branded Vortex Diesel pumps have a sign that says it contains up to 2% bio, whereas the Caltex Services stations do not display the same sign at their vortex diesel pumps. ps - shudder happened twice yesterday - once in 5th and once in 4th at 1900 and 2000rpm respectively.
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littlewhiteute
- Junior Member
- Posts: 623
- Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:22 am
- Location: Brisbane
So the problem is a light load problem only, certainly more likely to occur for light duty drivers.
Stay away from Bio-diesel, the injectors and pumps do not like the stuff.
The programming will be wrong as well.
I've seen high pressure pumps exploded from the wrong fuel, insufficient lubrication.
Stay away from Bio-diesel, the injectors and pumps do not like the stuff.
The programming will be wrong as well.
I've seen high pressure pumps exploded from the wrong fuel, insufficient lubrication.
Regards
Gary
Gary
long winded update
During January, the shudder had got to the point I dreaded inclines at anything approaching highway speeds for a while there. On Australia day I went to a friend's farm about 20km out of Queanbeyan. I decided to do the entire drive (speed zones from 50kph up to 100kph with mostly 80 or 90kph zones) without going above 4th gear.
I did the same for the commute the next day (30km each way, mostly 80kph zones with some 100kph and light to moderate traffic).
I also decided to reserve 6th for 100kph and above in the longer term, instead of using it for 80kph on the flat and very gentle inclines.
For the two weeks after that, the problem rarely presented itself. Then, for about two days last week, I reverted to the driving style I'd had from new (which presented no problems for the first 12,000 kms). That is, shifting up to 4th at about 60kph, 5th at about 70-75 kph and 6th at 80kph on the flat or gentle inclines. Not lugging the engine by any means, but keeping it at the bottom of the curve where the turbo and torque can quickly spool up if needed, but using little fuel.
After two days of that, we packed the little Forester for a weekend at the coast. Family of 5 with the back packed up above the level of the rear seat rests (cargo barrier in). The very first incline I found on Friday morning, a very gentle incline about two km from home, at 80kph in 5th, the shudder happened. Power disappeared suddenly and the car shook.
All the way from Banks (southern suburb of Canberra) until about Bungendore (maybe 60km or so), the car would die and shake on every hill, in 4th, 5th or 6th. Yep, some hills had to be driven in third gear!
After Bungendore, the problem disappeared and hasn't recurred. Even coming up the Clyde (locals know that road) from the coast yesterday, it handled the climb fine. This is a longish stretch of highway with very steep climbs and very tight hairpins. The car, loaded up, happily drove the entire stretch in 3rd and 4th, needing second only for the tightest, steepest and slowest hairpins.
Of course the problem went away, the car was booked into the dealer today. True to form, no problem was found.
Interestingly, at least half of the people booking in their cars today that I saw and heard were diesel owners with complaints about the DPF light. I didn't hear anyone else reporting the shudder, although an Outback owner I spoke to this arvo (7,500km on the clock) reckons he's felt a gentle shudder and "stalling sensation" on a hill at about 2,000 rpm recently.
Subaru are telling people they have to drive at 100kph in 4th for 30-40 minutes to ensure proper regen. Kinda defeats the purpose of having a diesel...
Anyway, did the shudder disappear, at least temporarily, because of the highway run (meaning it may be related to the DPF) or is that a coincidence?
Also, regarding the DPF issues, what the hell is Subaru going to do when it starts selling the diesel linked to an auto box? Tell people not to put it in drive?
Now, I'm happy if the problem has gone. However, I'll bet money that it will only take a few days of my normal driving for it to rear its ugly head again. When it does, it'll be straight to the dealer for a demonstration. To be fair, the dealer can't fix a problem that they can't replicate.
I'm no mechanic, but it seems to me to be at least linked to the DPF as it appears to be better after long hard runs. However, our DPF light has only come on once, briefly, in 16,500 kms, and not at all since the shudder has been happening.
Could the ECU be over zealous with attempted regens and causing glitches under load? Could it be a fueling fault at a particular load/rev condition? If so, why doesn't it always do it under the same conditions?
Lots of questions, no answers yet.
BTW, as a lease vehicle, we have fuel cards. Currently we only have Caltex and BP. We use Caltex (and Woolworths) almost exclusively as they are just about the only retailer around here. Might have to go out of my way for BP, although the shudder happens with both.
I did the same for the commute the next day (30km each way, mostly 80kph zones with some 100kph and light to moderate traffic).
I also decided to reserve 6th for 100kph and above in the longer term, instead of using it for 80kph on the flat and very gentle inclines.
For the two weeks after that, the problem rarely presented itself. Then, for about two days last week, I reverted to the driving style I'd had from new (which presented no problems for the first 12,000 kms). That is, shifting up to 4th at about 60kph, 5th at about 70-75 kph and 6th at 80kph on the flat or gentle inclines. Not lugging the engine by any means, but keeping it at the bottom of the curve where the turbo and torque can quickly spool up if needed, but using little fuel.
After two days of that, we packed the little Forester for a weekend at the coast. Family of 5 with the back packed up above the level of the rear seat rests (cargo barrier in). The very first incline I found on Friday morning, a very gentle incline about two km from home, at 80kph in 5th, the shudder happened. Power disappeared suddenly and the car shook.
All the way from Banks (southern suburb of Canberra) until about Bungendore (maybe 60km or so), the car would die and shake on every hill, in 4th, 5th or 6th. Yep, some hills had to be driven in third gear!
After Bungendore, the problem disappeared and hasn't recurred. Even coming up the Clyde (locals know that road) from the coast yesterday, it handled the climb fine. This is a longish stretch of highway with very steep climbs and very tight hairpins. The car, loaded up, happily drove the entire stretch in 3rd and 4th, needing second only for the tightest, steepest and slowest hairpins.
Of course the problem went away, the car was booked into the dealer today. True to form, no problem was found.
Interestingly, at least half of the people booking in their cars today that I saw and heard were diesel owners with complaints about the DPF light. I didn't hear anyone else reporting the shudder, although an Outback owner I spoke to this arvo (7,500km on the clock) reckons he's felt a gentle shudder and "stalling sensation" on a hill at about 2,000 rpm recently.
Subaru are telling people they have to drive at 100kph in 4th for 30-40 minutes to ensure proper regen. Kinda defeats the purpose of having a diesel...
Anyway, did the shudder disappear, at least temporarily, because of the highway run (meaning it may be related to the DPF) or is that a coincidence?
Also, regarding the DPF issues, what the hell is Subaru going to do when it starts selling the diesel linked to an auto box? Tell people not to put it in drive?
Now, I'm happy if the problem has gone. However, I'll bet money that it will only take a few days of my normal driving for it to rear its ugly head again. When it does, it'll be straight to the dealer for a demonstration. To be fair, the dealer can't fix a problem that they can't replicate.
I'm no mechanic, but it seems to me to be at least linked to the DPF as it appears to be better after long hard runs. However, our DPF light has only come on once, briefly, in 16,500 kms, and not at all since the shudder has been happening.
Could the ECU be over zealous with attempted regens and causing glitches under load? Could it be a fueling fault at a particular load/rev condition? If so, why doesn't it always do it under the same conditions?
Lots of questions, no answers yet.
BTW, as a lease vehicle, we have fuel cards. Currently we only have Caltex and BP. We use Caltex (and Woolworths) almost exclusively as they are just about the only retailer around here. Might have to go out of my way for BP, although the shudder happens with both.
I agree with you MESS, it defeats purpose of a Diesel to drive @ 100km for 30-40 mins.
I found if I warm the car for about 3-5 mins before driving it and then change at around >= 2000 rpm the DPF has stopped rearing its head.
However, having said that it's possible the the shudder problem is caused due to the DPF doings its thing in the back ground and something is missed in the timming or regen causing the shudder.
The problem has gone away since you've taken the car into Subaru to service so they may have reset some parameters in the CPU which remebers the values for the regen. Until it gets to the point to regen you may not see the problem happen.
I am yet to take my car into service being only 8500 and can't wait till I get to 12500km so I can get it done and then have a good base point to compare driving habits VS road conditions and engine loading.
It still seems to me to be programming or ECU related, and will be difficult to find exact replication to show Subaru in order so they have some replicatable stats to take it back to the developers to find a solution.
If we all keep on testing and providing the results I'm sure we can print the threads and take it to Subaru. After all the cars have been purchased due to thier fuel savings. It defeats the purpose to drive them due to the potential to shudder and loose power just when you need it.
Anyone else with similar problems?
I found if I warm the car for about 3-5 mins before driving it and then change at around >= 2000 rpm the DPF has stopped rearing its head.
However, having said that it's possible the the shudder problem is caused due to the DPF doings its thing in the back ground and something is missed in the timming or regen causing the shudder.
The problem has gone away since you've taken the car into Subaru to service so they may have reset some parameters in the CPU which remebers the values for the regen. Until it gets to the point to regen you may not see the problem happen.
I am yet to take my car into service being only 8500 and can't wait till I get to 12500km so I can get it done and then have a good base point to compare driving habits VS road conditions and engine loading.
It still seems to me to be programming or ECU related, and will be difficult to find exact replication to show Subaru in order so they have some replicatable stats to take it back to the developers to find a solution.
If we all keep on testing and providing the results I'm sure we can print the threads and take it to Subaru. After all the cars have been purchased due to thier fuel savings. It defeats the purpose to drive them due to the potential to shudder and loose power just when you need it.
Anyone else with similar problems?
I have a section of road near my Subaru Service department where we can repoduce the problem 100% of the time. They have test driven and experienced the "chatter box" first hand on at least 2 vehicles I am aware of, which is why I have total support from them regarding the resolution or explanation of this issue.
When we make progess, I will post it.
When we make progess, I will post it.
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FROG
- General Member
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Mess, did you see this reply on the SFO.org forum?Mess wrote:I haven't noticed any correlation between fuel level or ac on or off.
So far, since Friday, the problem has not recurred...but it will.
Might account for the loss of power & torque, but not the shudder.
Has your dealer tested this item?This sounds very much like the issue I had for months - the lack of power. No lights on the dash tho. Subaru Nordic thought it could be related the DPF trying to clean itself, as that will lower the overall power of the car while it works.
Problem as I see it was, it was doing this on a daily basis now. That can't be normal.
Eventually, after about 3 months, the dashboard lamp for the DPF started to blink, but before I could get out on the highway (5 min away) both the engine and dvc lamp lit.
Turns out, a sensor for the DPF was bad. Probably had been the whole time.
DPF thought it was full, even tho it was only 5-15% full, so started to clean out stuff that wasn't there.
Sensor replaced, and all has been perfect again for the last month.
Peter
I hit 8000km about couple weeks ago... today after a full tank and 150km at 100km/hr everything went well. it was when I hit incline on 100km at 2000rpm comming back sudder occured, i backed off to 4th without trying to keep on 5th for long.... there is something with 5th gear at 2000rpm...
Has Subaru got back to you?
Has Subaru got back to you?