XV test drive

discopotato03 · Post by **discopotato03** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:26 am

If you have to buy a new anything you are screwed because legislation is in place to force the manufacturers in the direction they're going . Subaru didn't release their POS diesel in its current form because they wanted it to be that way . Blame the educated idiots who are forcing this lunacy on a supposed democratic society . We are our own worst enemy because on mass WE aren't doing anything about it . Your Green ultra socialist Nazis are pushing this garbage and it isn't going to save the planet .

NachaLuva · Post by **NachaLuva** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:49 pm

discopotato03 wrote:I've got no sympathy for people without disabilities etc claiming they cannot co ordinate a clutch and a gearstick .

I've driven manuals most of my life but enjoy the "cruisiness" & reliability of an auto. Plus its much easier to creep out of mud without spinning a wheel in an auto & just ask Pedro bout autos on sand dunes. They certainly have their place but are not for everyone.

discopotato03 wrote: My issue is that the electronics won't outlive the vehicle and I'm highly suspicious of anything that tries to take control of my destiny .

Unfortunately you're right there!

When its all said and done the electronics don't do it any better than mechanical and hydraulic systems , but they are cheaper and easier to implement in volume .

Couldnt disagree more! While you're right bout increasing complexity reducing reliability, I challenge you to outperform ABS with EBD & ESC in an emergency braking situation on a wet road on an offcamber corner. Even drivers with considerable training find that an extremely challenging ask. Just imagine if some little kid runs out on the road...I dont care how good you or anyone else "thinks" they are, if that was my little kid you were trying to avoid killing I would want you to have all the electronic safety gizmos every single time!

Any way to each their own , A .

Manuals for some, autos for others, MANDATORY SAFETY FEATURES for everyone!

discopotato03 · Post by **discopotato03** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:33 pm

"Couldnt disagree more! While you're right bout increasing complexity reducing reliability, I challenge you to outperform ABS with EBD & ESC in an emergency braking situation on a wet road on an offcamber corner. Even drivers with considerable training find that an extremely challenging ask. Just imagine if some little kid runs out on the road...I dont care how good you or anyone else "thinks" they are, if that was my little kid you were trying to avoid killing I would want you to have all the electronic safety gizmos every single time!"

No way , you're not getting away with that one .
These days people have blind faith that the electronics have smarts and it will always save them - real world ? People still die in "modern" cars don't they ...

I'm sure I've been down this road before but ... One more time .
Think about peoples thoughts when it comes to buying tyres , most aren't like me and willing to throw a grands worth of performances tyres on a performance car/s . Like everything that slows you down tyres play a critical role and when the factory ones are replaced with cheapies they don't work the same .
Now ABS is ACTUALLY only as good as the tryes its trying to prevent locking so when you throw gripless cheapies on the ABS does its utmost to make sure they don't lock up . In the process you'll go further on shit tyres with ABS than you will with GOOD tyres and a good conventional system .
Enter ASC , it tries to steer the front of your car into disaster rather than the side or rear because thats where all the crumple zones are and the handbags and seat belts work best when the crunch comes from the front .
When you ASC tries to steer you by selectively draging wheels - if the cheap garbage tyres don't grip very wellll then ???????????

If anything todays generations of young drivers depend more on the electronics than the rest because many don't know any different - and the young are ultra optimistic because they have little experience in life ie don't know when to be scared/wary .

An experienced driver , a well adjusted mature one , will drive to the conditions and can allow extra margin for safety . Wet road/limited visibility/slippery conditions - common bloody sense says slow down and drive within the abilities of firstly the driver and then the vehicle .
Don't believe for one second that ROADS kill people because short of opening up under them there is a human element involved . More often than not its people not driving to the conditions and of late relying on fallable electronics to save them if it all goes pear shaped .

The culture we are breeding is that people need less and less skills when it comes to driving a vehicle and its THIS very thing that lulls the young and the clueless into the sometimes deadly false sense of security . The manufacturers try harder every year to isolate people in cars from the outside world and the greater the disconnect the greater the false sense of security IMO . Not everyone will agree with me but I believe the more a vehicle communicates with its driver the better informed he/she will be with whats happening around it .
These days most new cars are still wallowing soft body rolling evil understeering POSs - and yet they give even LESS feedback than cars did ten to fifteen years ago . Suspension and geometry isn't getting better and they want to rely on distributed electronically innitiated braking to steer you straight ?

Anyway I refuse to own anything with the brain replacement black boxes because I prefer to drive to the conditions and within my and my cars capabilities .

Kids , my daughter put a gocart head on into a wall with enough force to be bruised quite badly - sort of like being in a car accident where you get knocked about with nothing broken . I am personally REALLY glad she did that because for 3 or 4 nights coundn't sleep through various aches and pains . She now KNOWS what an accident feels like and will avoid doing the sorts of stupid things that can cause accidents . Not so for son and heir , ten feet tall (not literally) and bullet proof . Nothing can happen to me cause it hasn't already . Who wants to learn the ultimate lesson the hard way ?
Anyway bigger fish to fry , daughter brained son with shoe this morning so no doubt things to sort .

Bradenrm · Post by **Bradenrm** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:28 pm

I think in general, the idea of these black boxes is to help the average modern day driver who:
1. does not give a crap about car feedback
2. has never had an interest in what the limits are
3. gives no sh1ts about what tyres
4. expects car to go when told
5. expects car to stop when told

so in response to the above, car manufacturers (as a business out to make money) have responded by making their cars ridiculously easy for any person to drive, because that's one thing every manufacturer needs to cater for if they want to sell cars en masse.

So they give their cars uber soft suspension, relaxed caster and trail angles for light (albeit no feedback) steering. the public wants good looking cars and often visibility is lost, so they load them up with reversing cameras and such..also because of the above 5 points, the customer probably doesnt know how to drive anyway.

As far as all the black box stuff, it's not as evil as you might think. they are safety nets for the majority of people that buy cars these days. People like my mum who have shit driving positions which offer poor visibility and control, so by the time they react to a situation their panic response is to sink the foot to the floor...thank **** for abs.

Traction control..some people are genuinely stupid with their right foot, and need the help. Again, manufacturers are trying to help the ill equipped.

ESP...I don't know what you think the problem with this may be, but again, it provides at least one safe response to an unsafe situation with a driver behind the wheel who is really not skilled nor are they interested in becoming so.

ASC.. Crumple zones are there to be used and for good reason-they absorb and distribute the impact across a wider structure, rather than sending all of that force to its occupants. Crumple zones are simply the safest areas on a car to crash with, as far as occupants of both vehicles go. Sure, maybe a highly skilled driver could react to a situation with enough luck to simply have a glancing blow, perhaps in an emergency stop situation, but really...it's totally outside the realm of possibility where the majority of new car buyers are concerned.

as far as tyres are concerned..the computer (ESP ASC, ABS, TCS) can switch braking on/off up to 20 times a second..that's how they work, yo. Your foot can't do that.
And the thing is, without ABS under emergency braking...you lose steering capacity. With ABS, you retain some. So the driver can sink the boot in and still steer where as you lose some steering ability and you're also rather focussed on not locking up a wheel. But again as far as tyres go, these systems are detecting thousands of times a second exactly what's going on, and if it detects a loss of grip, traction or a wheel locking up, it reacts. How quickly it reacts or how is the response to different tyres. the worse your tyres are, the quicker it will take action (because you'll find yourself in a shit situation much quicker) but if you have great tyres you're not as likely to need these systems, but if you do they will still react. I guess what I'm saying is the computer doesn't care what boots your vehicle is wearing-it'll work it out nearly instantly.

These systems are in place for the above type of soccer-mum and dad drivers, they are not a replacement for a skilled and trained driver but they are a safety net for those who aren't and improve their chances of avoiding injury. In fact they can be helpful to all of us.

simply put, how often do you get to "practice" your emergency skills? Only in emergency situations.

These black boxes are always prepared, however, and ready to assist quicker than the human can react and while not always the best course of action, it's invariably one of many better alternatives to soccer mum locking up her wheels and rear ending the fella in front.

I really agree with you though, in that I personally prefer a communicative vehicle like my 97 sportswagon. There is nothing computer related unless it is telling my engine what to do. But is this the safest vehicle for me to drive? Not specifically for my safety...but for everyone else on the roads too?

I guess the whole situation is not as black and white as it may seem.

Gannon · Post by **Gannon** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:50 pm

Thanks Bradernm, you just saved me a heap of typing, that is exactly what I was gonna say.

I do agree with ol Disco to a point, but at the end of the day, these are mass produced cars designed for the masses.

While I enjoyed driving my old L turbo wagon, I much prefer my fuel injected, electronic auto transmission, climate controlled with power everything Outback for my daily commute, because its comfortable, reliable, and I know that if its raining and im tired and not paying attention, if a car pulls out in front of me, I have ABS to help pull me up and crumple zones and airbags to save me and my family's bones.

But I am building up the RX for fun driving when I want to.

revmax · Post by **revmax** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:28 pm

OMG Disco. I have to back you 100%, thanks for sharing your experinces and your familys experiences. BUT I know where Gannon is coming from as well.
Disco to teach your kiddies the know how of handeing a go Kart will give them the very essence of traction control particularly under braking.
Where Gannon is coming from I think is (being a little older with kids) being able to slam on the brakes if n when things go pear shape on the road, now if the vehicle ABS lets you down then you (hopefully) have the inbuilt skills of a non abs driver to get the vehicle to handle/stop or avoid safely. If you get my drift.

NachaLuva · Post by **NachaLuva** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:53 pm

Gannon & Bradenrm... spot on!

Revmax, I like how you see both sides.

discopotato03, I undersatnd your fear of electronics. You want the control, not some black box designed on a computer. However the reality is NO-ONE is in control!

Its not the expected situations you need these systems for (except for maybe the ignorant, arrogant or foolish few). But for most people with some skill & a good attitude, they are still needed for the UNEXPECTED situations that come at you out of the blue, catching you offguard. For those very few with well above average skills & attitude & concentration (read no distractions: stereo or screaming kids, etc!!!), they are still necessary by IMPROVING on your existing skills. No matter how you drive to the conditions (glad to hear it), NO-ONE is fully in control. These systems merely increase your level of control, no matter what the starting point.

Nothing more.

But that is exactly what they do.

PS: If you really hate technology that much, might I suggest a horse & cart?

Now before you jump up & down, I am just kidding lol. However my point is that without technology, that is exactly what we would all be driving!

AHD - All Hoof Drive

discopotato03 · Post by **discopotato03** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:34 pm

For a start I don't fear electronics , I just don't like the idea that I don't have the option to say no to them in braking and handling systems .
It's disapointing that many think that a general dumbing down in driving standards is regarded as acceptable and that being tired or unable to drive to a reasonably high standard is somehow ok .
I find the average standard of driving to be frightening and the things people do in cars never ceases to amase me . You're going to find a lot of people in my age group and older tell you the same thing possibly because we come from a time when you were expected to take responsibility for your own actions . We were taught to drive properly and if you didn't reach the standard expected you didn't get a licence .
Its not a case of me being scared of the unknown because don't think people like me didn't get in cars that were growing electronic aids and go put them through their paces . Yes ABS is a band aid for rubbish suspension tyres and brakes and yes ASC tries to take control if IT thinks things are getting out of control . All of it is unpredictable meaning you don't know what its going to do so YOU cannot be confident of the outcome .

Anyway , if you think you have confidence in the electronic saviours by all means go with them . I'll avoid them knowing that the way I like my cars to be and the way I drive them gives them and me a good chance of longevity . Statistically I'm low risk and there is a reason for that - and it ain't the electronics . Just think about it .

A .

d_generate · Post by **d_generate** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:17 am

I saw on Zoom TV today there is going to be a turbo XV introduced to Aus next year.

discopotato03 · Post by **discopotato03** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:30 am

If you search around there is a diseasel version of this "Impreza VX" and like most these days has a turbocharger on it . The feller who drove it says its better than the "gasoline" one because in typical diesel form it makes torque down low and that feels good .
Not sure if its the same lizard diesel that we get here but it wouldn't be difficult to find out .
I did see a VX yesterday and while it may suit some its a bit cap on backwards styling wise for me .

Subyroo · Post by **Subyroo** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:31 pm

d_generate wrote:I saw on Zoom TV today there is going to be a turbo XV introduced to Aus next year.

Petrol or Diesel?

Gannon · Post by **Gannon** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:00 pm

Could be the petrol...

themotorreport.com.au/subaru-targeting-efficiency-with-new-20-and-16-boxer-engines

With a DI turbo 1.6L, this has to mean that Subaru will be making a return to WRC

NachaLuva · Post by **NachaLuva** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:11 pm

Gannon wrote: With a DI turbo 1.6L, this has to mean that Subaru will be making a return to WRC

Woohoo

discopotato03 · Post by **discopotato03** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:05 am

Engine type: Horizontally opposed four cylinder DOHC
Displacement: 1995 cc
Compression ratio: 10.5
Bore x stroke: 84 x 90 mm
Max. output: 109 kW
Max. torque: 196 Nm

If the bore and stroke are true then thats a major change from their big bore short stroke brothers .
Roo engines have never been class winning consumption wise and big bores at times made the engines hard to package particularly with DOHC heads on them .

A .

d_generate · Post by **d_generate** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:16 am

He didn't say petrol or diesel but I would imagine if it was going to be a diesel it would have been mentioned????? Was a pretty good review and comes with 220mm clearance stock which is pretty bloody good.

thunder039 · Post by **thunder039** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:05 pm

it will be petrol

YouTube · Post by **El_Freddo** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:43 pm

discopotato03 wrote:It's disapointing that many think that a general dumbing down in driving standards is regarded as acceptable and that being tired or unable to drive to a reasonably high standard is somehow ok .
I find the average standard of driving to be frightening and the things people do in cars never ceases to amase me . You're going to find a lot of people in my age group and older tell you the same thing possibly because we come from a time when you were expected to take responsibility for your own actions . We were taught to drive properly and if you didn't reach the standard expected you didn't get a licence.

Totally agree Disco! It's a worry how generally the majority of the population's driving skills either weren't there in the first place or have slipped.

And I totally agree with what you've said in the above posts about "driver aides" etc, I couldn't have put that forward in the way you did. Also, you're not alone in that way of thinking.

Knowing how to drive in the first place is what's most important!!!

Gannon wrote:With a DI turbo 1.6L, this has to mean that Subaru will be making a return to WRC

If this is true, I'm stoked! Bring it on!

Cheers

Bennie

discopotato03 · Post by **discopotato03** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:03 am

International rallying at a manufacturers level takes massive amounts of cash and its only any good if it turnes into sales .
Most manufacturers build basically kit cars to go rallying in WRC because the World Rally Car class doesn't require the car to be a production based one like Group A did .
I seriously doubt you could pull any Subaru model out of the showroom and take it rallying , few if any of todays rubbish cars would make an acceptable basis for a rally rocket . Body shells wouldn't cope very well and production car suspension geometry is all wrong for any real competition use .
This is why production based racing homologation specials make better performance road cars , a lot of things are different and most people can't live with the differences .
This is the price you pay for being cocooned inside todays real world exclusion zones on wheels . Isolated from reality but not excluded from responsibility .

thunder039 · Post by **thunder039** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:27 am

discopotato03 wrote: I seriously doubt you could pull any Subaru model out of the showroom and take it rallying .

challenge accepted!;)

Gannon · Post by **Gannon** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:58 pm

discopotato03 wrote:International rallying at a manufacturers level takes massive amounts of cash and its only any good if it turnes into sales .
Most manufacturers build basically kit cars to go rallying in WRC because the World Rally Car class doesn't require the car to be a production based one like Group A did .
I seriously doubt you could pull any Subaru model out of the showroom and take it rallying , few if any of todays rubbish cars would make an acceptable basis for a rally rocket . Body shells wouldn't cope very well and production car suspension geometry is all wrong for any real competition use .
This is why production based racing homologation specials make better performance road cars , a lot of things are different and most people can't live with the differences .

Up until the last WRC that Subaru competed in, they used production cars, which were stripped, roll cage added, engine fine tuned, suspension was swapped for a replacement that is more suited for the conditions and strengthening bars added and navigation and safety provisions added, all stuff that most people wouldnt need/want in a road car.