G'day all,
I have been asked to do a project at school to find out if and how much a Hydrogen powered car would cost? I ve looked on google and there are two sorts of kits.... One is where you pump pure Hydrogen into the System and it combusts as normal while leaving just a small water discharge out of the muffler.
The Other is where you have a small revisvare like the one on your radiator and it runs thru some copper piping and then thru some saftey thing and and then it extracts thhe hydrogen out of the water and burns as normal.
Any thoughts, comment's would be great thanks.
Cheers Ethan
Hydrogen Poweed Cars?
Hydrogen Poweed Cars?
Current Ride - 85 Touring wagon, All electrics, KYB long travel struts, Power Steer, Mags (swapping for sunnies). 
-
Gannon
- Senior Member
- Posts: 4580
- Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:00 am
- Location: Bowraville, Mid Nth Coast, NSW
You will be hard pressed to run a normal combustion engine on pure hydrogen. Millions of dollars have been put into it by BMW and the like, but its still in development.
There are a lot of kits out there that are based around the principle of using electricity to separate the hydrogen and oxygen from water (brown gas). This is not a dedicated hydrogen running engine, but merely uses a small amount of hydrogen to improve combustion efficiency. There is much controversy on if this actually works. I myself am a little sceptical, but im willing to be proven otherwise
There are a lot of kits out there that are based around the principle of using electricity to separate the hydrogen and oxygen from water (brown gas). This is not a dedicated hydrogen running engine, but merely uses a small amount of hydrogen to improve combustion efficiency. There is much controversy on if this actually works. I myself am a little sceptical, but im willing to be proven otherwise
Current rides: 2016 Mitsubishi Triton GLS & 2004 Forester X
Ongoing Project/Toy: 1987 RX Turbo EA82T, Speeduino ECU, Coil-pack ignition, 440cc Injectors, KONI adjustale front struts, Hybrid L Series/ Liberty AWD 5sp
Past rides: 92 L series turbo converted wagon, 83 Leone GL Sedan, 2004 Liberty GT Sedan & 2001 Outback
------------------------------------------
Ongoing Project/Toy: 1987 RX Turbo EA82T, Speeduino ECU, Coil-pack ignition, 440cc Injectors, KONI adjustale front struts, Hybrid L Series/ Liberty AWD 5sp
Past rides: 92 L series turbo converted wagon, 83 Leone GL Sedan, 2004 Liberty GT Sedan & 2001 Outback
------------------------------------------
-
BaronVonChickenPants
- General Member
- Posts: 1187
- Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:00 am
- Location: Nowra, NSW
There was an episode of mythbusters where they tested running an engine with hydrogen separated from water via electrolysis, the amount of time required for the ridiculously small quantity produced was completely impractical.
They then tried running the same engine from pure hydrogen, and it did run, until it backfired and ignited the gas line.
Theoretically you could probably use something like a modified lpg kit to regulate the gas and run an engine, but actually obtaining usable quantities of hydrogen would not be an easy feat, especially considering how inefficient it is to use in this form due to it's comparably low energy density.
The H2H (Hydrogen powered Hummer) for example with its supercharged 6L V8 only yeilds 134kw (180hp) and gets a whoping 60 miles from a full tank of 5.5kg of hydrogen.
Imagine not being able to make a 100km trip with out refueling.
As much as we all love our internal combustion engines, I firmly believe electric is the way of the future, be it solar, battery, hydrogen fuel cell, technology X.
Jordan.
They then tried running the same engine from pure hydrogen, and it did run, until it backfired and ignited the gas line.
Theoretically you could probably use something like a modified lpg kit to regulate the gas and run an engine, but actually obtaining usable quantities of hydrogen would not be an easy feat, especially considering how inefficient it is to use in this form due to it's comparably low energy density.
The H2H (Hydrogen powered Hummer) for example with its supercharged 6L V8 only yeilds 134kw (180hp) and gets a whoping 60 miles from a full tank of 5.5kg of hydrogen.
Imagine not being able to make a 100km trip with out refueling.
As much as we all love our internal combustion engines, I firmly believe electric is the way of the future, be it solar, battery, hydrogen fuel cell, technology X.
Jordan.
To become old and wise, first you must survive being young and dumb.
Hydrogen fueled cars is never likely to power our ubituous mode of transport,
the infrastructure cost is enormously huge if it would ever be pulled off.
And storing it in exotic materials like lithium is expensive too.
Was the mythbuster test generating browns gas (HOH) or separating H2 and O ?
The thing about efficiencies in generating brown gas is keeping it acidic, and i don't like the idea of that anywhere near the car.
Agree, electric is how it will go, this is perfectly fine for suburban mobility, but long range touring? whats gonna happen?
And go nuclear to charge all them cars overnite.....
the infrastructure cost is enormously huge if it would ever be pulled off.
And storing it in exotic materials like lithium is expensive too.
Was the mythbuster test generating browns gas (HOH) or separating H2 and O ?
The thing about efficiencies in generating brown gas is keeping it acidic, and i don't like the idea of that anywhere near the car.
Agree, electric is how it will go, this is perfectly fine for suburban mobility, but long range touring? whats gonna happen?
And go nuclear to charge all them cars overnite.....
it might be useful to find the may edition of australasian science, there is a very interesting article about producing hydrogen from aluminum if this works out Australia should be the new saudi arabia. it might not be what the teacher is looking for, but it makes the storage of hydrogen much less of an issue, which is the big problem with running cars on it.
also this was on the science show on radio national also search their site for stuff on hydrogen buses and stuff
Transcript
This transcript was typed from a recording of the program. The ABC cannot guarantee its complete accuracy because of the possibility of mishearing and occasional difficulty in identifying speakers.
Robyn Williams: A couple of weeks ago we brought you research at the University of Queensland using algae to produce hydrogen. Now another promising means using aluminium. Here's Peter Pockley with the swashbuckling Professor Jerry Woodall at Perdue University in Indiana USA.
Jerry Woodall: We have learned how to split water with a material that normally won't do it because of a passivating oxide that covers it, that material is aluminium, and I figured out a way of disrupting this passivating A oxide so that the water that comes in contact will react with the aluminium forming hydrogen, aluminium oxide and heat. The hydrogen part is a highly volatile gas that is hard to store, transport and use safely. No one has yet figured out how to provide hydrogen to tens of millions of motorists without great risk. What I hope to show you today is I have found a way to get around those risks for hydrogen, and the bottom line is I can make hydrogen when you want it, or hydrogen on demand.
Okay, so what we're going to use is aluminium now. Aluminium is not thought of as a fuel but if you were a thermochemist and you were asking the question of the energy content of aluminium...suppose I compare it to oil. So I take some aluminium and take it to its oxide, namely aluminium oxide, compare that energy that's released to oil, and it turns out that a pound of oil will give you 19,000 BTUs, British Thermal Units. Well, aluminium will give you 14,000 BTUs per pound. So aluminium, even though you don't think of it this way, is a very high energy density material, and the amount of energy released when it goes from aluminium to aluminium oxide is a lot, just like when you burn oil, that's a lot too.
Peter Pockley: We're with Professor Jerry Woodall and we've now just moved into the laboratory at Perdue.
Jerry Woodall: Okay, we're going to show you an alloy pellet.
Peter Pockley: That's 50% aluminium and 50% gallium.
Jerry Woodall: Right. So this is a little chunk of that and we're going to add water to it.
Peter Pockley: And Jeffrey you're a...
Jeffrey: I'm a PhD student in the electrical and computer engineering department here at Perdue University.
Peter Pockley: And in your gloved hand is a pellet of this magical material.
Jeffrey: Yes.
Peter Pockley: Okay, what are we going to see?
Jeffrey: You can expect to see that pretty much on the instant it comes into contact with water, you will see particles being dispersed in the water from the reaction and you will see bubbles, and those bubbles are indicative of hydrogen production. So you can see the pellet in there, it weighs probably roughly three or four grams, and here goes some water.
Peter Pockley: Yes, quite rapidly some very small bubbles, the kind of thing you see in a soft-drink when the pressure is released. And how long will this fizzing process go on for?
Jeffrey: You can expect to see noticeable reaction for up to three or four minutes after the initial contact with water.
Peter Pockley: And what turns it off?
Jeffrey: Either removing the water from contact with the alloy or using up all the aluminium that's present in the alloy.
Peter Pockley: So it's bubbling away at quite a rate now. Is it fairly constant, that it goes at a predictable rate using this kind of material?
Jeffrey: Yes, some start up faster than others, but you can pretty much expect to see the same thing happening each time you conduct an experiment like you see here.
Peter Pockley: And if you test the gas which is coming off, it's quite evidently hydrogen?
Jeffrey: Yes, we've done several tests already and we've gotten up to around 88% hydrogen. We expect that the rest are just contaminants from our measuring equipment and stuff. We expect that if we do it right we can get 99% purity hydrogen or higher.
Jerry Woodall: Turning out grey like it usually does.
Peter Pockley: Is that the pellet beginning to disintegrate with the release of the...
Jeffrey: That's right.
Peter Pockley: Is that a factor that's going to be something you've got to take account of in a commercial process?
Jerry Woodall: No because we'll use the aluminium up and then reclaim the aluminium oxide, the water, and we'll reprocess it. It's all mechanical separation after that.
Jeffrey: You can expect to see a power such as this after the reaction has gone to completion and you evaporate off the water.
Peter Pockley: A sort of a granular light-grey powdery material, which is aluminium oxide.
Jeffrey: Yes, aluminium oxide with a little bit of the gallium compound that we put in there.
Peter Pockley: It looks deceptively simple.
Jerry Woodall: I'm not smart enough to do complicated things, Peter.
Peter Pockley: Was it simple to get to this point, though?
Jerry Woodall: It was a discovery, you know. What can I tell you? I was working on something complicated, as I told you, in my office to make crystals, that was complicated, but this is not. And in hindsight it's very obvious that it should work.
Peter Pockley: So we could be looking at this very simple beaker which is common in a chemistry laboratory at any school, that built into there could be a solution or one of the solutions to the world's energy problems. You're not taking it too far in making that claim, are you?
Jerry Woodall: No. I mean, look, this is scalable easily. If you could imagine scaling this thing into a steam ship, a submarine or anything. But I'm not going to claim that that's been done, it's got to be done.
Peter Pockley: Well done to Perdue, and thank you very much for the demonstration.
Jerry Woodall: Okay.
Peter Pockley: Energy galore.
Robyn Williams: Peter Pockley at Perdue and his full report on that approach and its potential is in the current addition of the Australasian Science magazine.
Guests
Jerry M. Woodall
Professor of Electrical and Computer Engineering Purdue University West Lafayette, Indiana USA
https://engineering.purdue.edu/ECE/Peop ... ce_id=3058
Peter Pockley
Science writer Sydney NSW
Further Information
Making of Hydrogen from Aluminium
also this was on the science show on radio national also search their site for stuff on hydrogen buses and stuff
Transcript
This transcript was typed from a recording of the program. The ABC cannot guarantee its complete accuracy because of the possibility of mishearing and occasional difficulty in identifying speakers.
Robyn Williams: A couple of weeks ago we brought you research at the University of Queensland using algae to produce hydrogen. Now another promising means using aluminium. Here's Peter Pockley with the swashbuckling Professor Jerry Woodall at Perdue University in Indiana USA.
Jerry Woodall: We have learned how to split water with a material that normally won't do it because of a passivating oxide that covers it, that material is aluminium, and I figured out a way of disrupting this passivating A oxide so that the water that comes in contact will react with the aluminium forming hydrogen, aluminium oxide and heat. The hydrogen part is a highly volatile gas that is hard to store, transport and use safely. No one has yet figured out how to provide hydrogen to tens of millions of motorists without great risk. What I hope to show you today is I have found a way to get around those risks for hydrogen, and the bottom line is I can make hydrogen when you want it, or hydrogen on demand.
Okay, so what we're going to use is aluminium now. Aluminium is not thought of as a fuel but if you were a thermochemist and you were asking the question of the energy content of aluminium...suppose I compare it to oil. So I take some aluminium and take it to its oxide, namely aluminium oxide, compare that energy that's released to oil, and it turns out that a pound of oil will give you 19,000 BTUs, British Thermal Units. Well, aluminium will give you 14,000 BTUs per pound. So aluminium, even though you don't think of it this way, is a very high energy density material, and the amount of energy released when it goes from aluminium to aluminium oxide is a lot, just like when you burn oil, that's a lot too.
Peter Pockley: We're with Professor Jerry Woodall and we've now just moved into the laboratory at Perdue.
Jerry Woodall: Okay, we're going to show you an alloy pellet.
Peter Pockley: That's 50% aluminium and 50% gallium.
Jerry Woodall: Right. So this is a little chunk of that and we're going to add water to it.
Peter Pockley: And Jeffrey you're a...
Jeffrey: I'm a PhD student in the electrical and computer engineering department here at Perdue University.
Peter Pockley: And in your gloved hand is a pellet of this magical material.
Jeffrey: Yes.
Peter Pockley: Okay, what are we going to see?
Jeffrey: You can expect to see that pretty much on the instant it comes into contact with water, you will see particles being dispersed in the water from the reaction and you will see bubbles, and those bubbles are indicative of hydrogen production. So you can see the pellet in there, it weighs probably roughly three or four grams, and here goes some water.
Peter Pockley: Yes, quite rapidly some very small bubbles, the kind of thing you see in a soft-drink when the pressure is released. And how long will this fizzing process go on for?
Jeffrey: You can expect to see noticeable reaction for up to three or four minutes after the initial contact with water.
Peter Pockley: And what turns it off?
Jeffrey: Either removing the water from contact with the alloy or using up all the aluminium that's present in the alloy.
Peter Pockley: So it's bubbling away at quite a rate now. Is it fairly constant, that it goes at a predictable rate using this kind of material?
Jeffrey: Yes, some start up faster than others, but you can pretty much expect to see the same thing happening each time you conduct an experiment like you see here.
Peter Pockley: And if you test the gas which is coming off, it's quite evidently hydrogen?
Jeffrey: Yes, we've done several tests already and we've gotten up to around 88% hydrogen. We expect that the rest are just contaminants from our measuring equipment and stuff. We expect that if we do it right we can get 99% purity hydrogen or higher.
Jerry Woodall: Turning out grey like it usually does.
Peter Pockley: Is that the pellet beginning to disintegrate with the release of the...
Jeffrey: That's right.
Peter Pockley: Is that a factor that's going to be something you've got to take account of in a commercial process?
Jerry Woodall: No because we'll use the aluminium up and then reclaim the aluminium oxide, the water, and we'll reprocess it. It's all mechanical separation after that.
Jeffrey: You can expect to see a power such as this after the reaction has gone to completion and you evaporate off the water.
Peter Pockley: A sort of a granular light-grey powdery material, which is aluminium oxide.
Jeffrey: Yes, aluminium oxide with a little bit of the gallium compound that we put in there.
Peter Pockley: It looks deceptively simple.
Jerry Woodall: I'm not smart enough to do complicated things, Peter.
Peter Pockley: Was it simple to get to this point, though?
Jerry Woodall: It was a discovery, you know. What can I tell you? I was working on something complicated, as I told you, in my office to make crystals, that was complicated, but this is not. And in hindsight it's very obvious that it should work.
Peter Pockley: So we could be looking at this very simple beaker which is common in a chemistry laboratory at any school, that built into there could be a solution or one of the solutions to the world's energy problems. You're not taking it too far in making that claim, are you?
Jerry Woodall: No. I mean, look, this is scalable easily. If you could imagine scaling this thing into a steam ship, a submarine or anything. But I'm not going to claim that that's been done, it's got to be done.
Peter Pockley: Well done to Perdue, and thank you very much for the demonstration.
Jerry Woodall: Okay.
Peter Pockley: Energy galore.
Robyn Williams: Peter Pockley at Perdue and his full report on that approach and its potential is in the current addition of the Australasian Science magazine.
Guests
Jerry M. Woodall
Professor of Electrical and Computer Engineering Purdue University West Lafayette, Indiana USA
https://engineering.purdue.edu/ECE/Peop ... ce_id=3058
Peter Pockley
Science writer Sydney NSW
Further Information
Making of Hydrogen from Aluminium
-
Thalass
- Junior Member
- Posts: 473
- Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:21 am
- Location: North Bay, Ontario, Canada
Unless you're running it through a fuel cell to produce electricity, hydrogen is less efficient than a regular IC engine! It is difficult to store, has low energy density, and is difficult and expensive to acquire.
I know this is not related to your project, but I would rather take all that electricity and stick it in a battery, and then power an electric car - rather than use it to produce hydrogen and then put it in a fuel cell to run said EV. Hydrogen is a storage media, not a fuel, and it's not a very good one either, sadly.
But good luck with the project!
I know this is not related to your project, but I would rather take all that electricity and stick it in a battery, and then power an electric car - rather than use it to produce hydrogen and then put it in a fuel cell to run said EV. Hydrogen is a storage media, not a fuel, and it's not a very good one either, sadly.
But good luck with the project!
Living in Canada now. Looking at all these SVXs for sale...
I'VE GOT AN OUTBACK AGAIN WOOT
I'VE GOT AN OUTBACK AGAIN WOOT
Hydro
Did he buy that 110 page booklet off Ebay? I have looked into it and was planning to do that same set-up on my Suby.
Another silly thought but does it only work on fuel injected cars? Cheers Ethan
Another silly thought but does it only work on fuel injected cars? Cheers Ethan
Current Ride - 85 Touring wagon, All electrics, KYB long travel struts, Power Steer, Mags (swapping for sunnies).
"The Other is where you have a small revisvare like the one on your radiator and it runs thru some copper piping and then thru some saftey thing and and then it extracts thhe hydrogen out of the water and burns as normal."
Dissociating water into hydrogen & oxygen then recombining it is thermodynamically nonsense.....there are many fraudulent schemes (search Stan Meyer, Joe Newmann etc) to sell dealerships for this technology but is it totally impractical. The reason for it is simple - they are based on claims that you can break the O-H bonds in water with less energy than is liberated when they reform, which, thermodynamically , is impossible. (There is a good Skeptoid podcast - #87- on this ) . You may want to look at Crower engines - these are effectively 6 stroke engines & really innovative designs (and they potentially require no cooling systems) - they rely on the physical properties of water , no dissociation. best regards....jim
Dissociating water into hydrogen & oxygen then recombining it is thermodynamically nonsense.....there are many fraudulent schemes (search Stan Meyer, Joe Newmann etc) to sell dealerships for this technology but is it totally impractical. The reason for it is simple - they are based on claims that you can break the O-H bonds in water with less energy than is liberated when they reform, which, thermodynamically , is impossible. (There is a good Skeptoid podcast - #87- on this ) . You may want to look at Crower engines - these are effectively 6 stroke engines & really innovative designs (and they potentially require no cooling systems) - they rely on the physical properties of water , no dissociation. best regards....jim