2010 Diesel Drivetrain shudder

[StrontiumSteel]

Any updates from anybody? Although I've never had a problem, I've certainly been watching in interest. Going in for my first service soon though so the car is still very young.

[reefer]

My local dealer suggested the problem arises from 3 things.
1. Poor fuel
2. Not working the engine enough
3. Sensors in the exhaust manifold gumming up.

The local service manager discovered the sensor issue (he is in the internal newspaper about it), and after they were cleaned with Suby cylinder cleaner, the issue immediately went away.

So, they now clean these sensors on particular services and advise people to work the engine, as your fuel consumption will not be affected to any noticeable degree.

Myself, I don't have to worry about it, as today, I picked up my new Satin white Forester x.

Cheers

Mark

[suthol]

Mine has been running fine since the previous service at about 22,000.

Had it serviced Tuesday last week and drove to Adelaide to back towing a car and it didn't miss a beat, admittedly a bit thirsty at 11.2/100. All up weight of trailer and Nemo was ~ 950 Kg.

No prisioners were taken as we sat bang on the speed limit all the way, apart from overtaking opportunities

[tasla]

The EGR valve is replaced. It was clogged by carbon. The mechanic said it can easily be cleaned. After 1000 km driven, everything is fine ("fingers crossed").

It was also suggested to flush the engine from time to time. The mechanic said he checked with his colleagues at BMW, Mercedes and others and they all are reporting the same issue. It is the speed limit in the Netherlands he said, as this is not happening in the Germany.

Anyway, I don't know, I'll keep you up-to-date with this.

Cheers.

[Subyroo]

No mate, down in Brisbane. A dealer on the sunshine coast would have been a lot closer & easier.

I understand only too well, I go down to Brendale for the servicing on my Forester.
Gary Crick Subaru offered me a poor trade-in price on my 2000 RX Liberty (very good condition - 80k Kms) on my current 03 Forester, plus an argument over servicing quality control and another over charging for item/service not required - never again.

Re high Kms, I did a lot of trips between Sunshine Coast and Townsville plus one big one to Melb/surrounds & return.

[Dikman]

G'day all, I've just joined so that I can express my thanks for this excellent thread. My wife recently had the idea that it might be nice to change our car for a new one (we have a 2005 Forester XS Luxury auto, and she thought a new Forester might be nice). I duly rode down to the dealer and picked up brochures, prices etc. The idea of the diesel sounded good, and while it was only available as a manual I figured I could put up with that.

So, like with most things I do these days, I started searching the 'net for user reports. Strangely enough, it was hard to find much at all concerning the boxer diesel. Eventually, I came across this thread and by the time I got to the end (!) it had helped me make a decision - NO DIESEL for me! The experiences of the owners on here made me realise that it was not the car for us. My wife is the primary user of our car (I have a couple of Triumph motorbikes that I normally use for transport), so the car has to be one that can be driven for (often) short trips around the shops etc. without having to worry about how it's being driven. From that point of view, our current petrol auto has performed flawlessly - my wife can just get in and drive.

As much as my heart would like to buy the diesel, my head is telling me to keep right away from it!!

The responses (or lack thereof) from Subaru made me shake my head. From my experiences dealing with them in 2005/2006 I see that their customer relations hasn't improved. (I spent 12 months fighting them over a particular issue - nothing wrong with the car, mind - and it was only when I threatened to go to consumer affairs and demand a complete refund because they hadn't actually sold me what I'd ordered that they relented and fixed the problem. And then they tried to make me feel like they were doing me a favour!!!). They're lucky that they happen to make a great car, otherwise I wouldn't deal with them again.

In fact, the only thing I can honestly fault with my car is the auto trans. My wife calls the car "Lurch" because of the rough shifting! I've heard that the latest auto is better, but until I try it I'll remain sceptical.

Whether I'll actually get a new one, now that I've ruled out the diesel, I don't know. (I actually like the boxy shape of mine better than the latest version).

Oh, and Subyroo, you probably don't remember me, but I remember you from the old Offroadsubaru forum . Good to see you're still going strong.

[Subyroo]

Oh, and Subyroo, you probably don't remember me, but I remember you from the old Offroadsubaru forum . Good to see you're still going strong.

Your username rang a bell as soon as I saw it, thanks for saving me from a headache in trying to remember where.

I too was very interested in a diesel Forester until this thread grew to where it is today, I also like my boxy old Forester, occasionally the new model gets me to have a 2nd look but in the end I come back to my current model for looks.

Could use the extra leg room in the back seat of the new models though.

[Geoffoz]

Just read 35 pages, wow! There is so much info here Ill try too keep my post concise.

I purchased a 2011 (built) 2.0D in March
@ 2000km + I had a 3" exhaust installed from the DPF back (click here to see)
@ 4000km I had the CPU remapped for better performance (click here to see)
@ 9100km I had my 6 month service and did the user's 'manual oil reset' (instructions here)
@13980km my DPF warning light starts flashing (bypassing the solid illumination stage)
At this time I pulled over at my nearest opportunity and called the dealer, they advised me to keep driving keeping the car in 3rd around town or 5th on the highway keeping revs above 2000rpm. I did this and after some frustrating low performance driving the light did go off.
- The next day I drove from Ipswich to the Gold Coast and halfway there the light flashed on again, about 30 mins later it went off (just as I was arriving)
- On my return trip the same thing happened and just before I got home the light went off.
- Finally the next morning I drove to Springfield and back about a 45-50 minute round trip. The light started flashing early on the drive but did not go away after +30mins of driving. During this time I experienced my first SHUDDER, exactly as everyone here has described it, 2000rpm at about 70km/h in 4th gear, accelerating on an incline. I know this car should power up a hill like this one in these conditions.

Some additional info...
- I frequently (twice a week) do long trips where regen has enough time to burn away all the soot (50 minute drives on highway and 60k zones from Ipswich to north Brisbane then back again)
- I use 3rd gear at 60k, 4th gear at 80k and 5th at 100k (6th if I go more than 110k)
- I have noticed that my engine oil is higher then the max dot on the dipstick (Dilution?)
- I do a short 8 minute drive to work and home again 5 days a week (posibly interrupting potential full regens)
- On my last tank of fuel I noted a 0.6L/100k increase in fuel consumption from 7 to 7.6

From reading this thread I have come up with a few potential answers to my problem...
1. The Manual Oil Reset did not work (as a possible result of the ECU remap)
2. Too many unfinished regens affecting the oil dilution
3. Bad DPF sensor
4. Larger exhaust isnt allowing enough backpressure to create high burnoff temps (although this is unlikely 'cus it has been on the car for over 10000k now)

Some new info to consider.
- Could the humidity be affecting our diesels?
- As a side-effect of the post-injection, could sensors be getting muddled and result in too much oil in the engine and could this in turn be causing the shudder?

I am keen to hear more of everyones experiences with DPF and SHUDDER related problems. I am going to see my dealer and service center tomorrow afternoon for a polite chat to see if we can get to the bottom of this horrible curse once and for all. I want to see the data they pull from my ECU to share it with everyone here.


Also, Hello AUSubaru.com

[Gannon]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Nice Foz you have there.

- As the common rail injects diesel into the oil

Can you please explain what you mean in more detail? Im pretty sure that the diesel is injected into the cylinder

[discopotato03]

You can thank the gangreens for all this grief , they've just about buggered petrol engines and now they're putting diesels through the same process .

Basically diesel engines generally run lower combustion temps than petrol ones but running diesels lean doesn't make them hotter - just the opposite . I reckon the reasons why these things play up is because you are struggling to run the emissions gear hot enough to work properly .
Torquey engines don't need to work hard dragging passenger cars around and a cold diesel isn't a particularly clean thing .
I think its really stupid having a torquey engine and having to rev it to make the emission s gear work .
I'm beginning to think the answer may be to reduce the engines capacity and make it work a bit harder to generate the necessary heat to function as the manufacturer intends it too .

I think there is way too much R and D going on here and the losers are manufacturers reputations and customers satisfaction .

A bit OT here but locomotive diesel engine manufacturers are struggling as well because of tightening EPA requirements in the US . Some are considering some kind of liquid urea solution injected into the exhaust stream before reactors but this has more to do with NOx emissions than particulate ones . I also see mention of some "Add Blue" stuff for trucks and comercials .

Anyway until these issues are solved I wouldn't touch these things - who needs the dramas ?

PS if you want to spook a manufacturer or dealership get on the national/international blogs and advertise their inaction - for all the world to see . Many many people read this stuff including the shiny bums , and we all know what runs downhill .

[skipalami]

Been shudder free since May until 2 days ago...sort of.

On Saturday I filled up with what I would regard as poor diesel supplied by a supermarket chain. Since then I am sure I have done at least one or more regens and I can feel the shudder trying to start but unable to take hold. I am able to accelerate out of it. Poor fuel does seem to be a big issue. No other aspect of my driving has changed in the last 8 months.

FYI, the oil dilution is a mathematical formula derived based on how the vehicle is driven, there is no direct measurment of it. Additionally the regen injection is injected into the cylinder post combustion.

I also wondering if there is a relationship between the cars tendancy to shudder and the initial loosening up of the engine as it beds in. Just putting it out there...

WHat are people getting for economy BTW, my Outback does 750km of freeway/aterial per week and get 5.4 to 5.6 L/100km.

[Geoffoz]

Can you please explain what you mean in more detail? Im pretty sure that the diesel is injected into the cylinder

Sorry I was wrong in my information, I have edited my post to reword my question.

Thanks for the replies, I am seeing the dealer tomorrow morning and I will report back our findings, I am hoping to work together with them to get this problem sorted out.

Skipalami, how long has it been since your last service? Was the Oil Reset done correctly? That is what we suspect the problem is in my car.

[Dikman]

I'm still following this thread, out of curiosity. I gather there's still no resolution from Subaru? A couple of questions occurred to me - the diesel was brought out in the Outback first, does anyone know if it had similar problems? Was that engine to Euro 4 standards (not 5)?.

As an aside, while our poor little Forry is at the crash repairs, my daughter kindly lent me their Toyota Hilux - a 3 year old diesel! Whilst it's the size of a small truck (!), it actually goes very well and is easy to drive, engine-wise. This is what got me thinking about a diesel, but there's obviously no comparison between this car and the Subie diesel.

[skipalami]

Geoffoz,

I am yet to experience the DPF light. My last service (25000) was in August. I am up for 37500 in a couple of weeks time.

[Geoffoz]

RESULTS ARE IN!

The problem was that the 'Oil Dilution' was at 10% (according to the ECU)
The solution was to reset the Oil Dilution with the dealers plugin tool.
What we dont know is the exact cause of why the ECU thought that the Oil was over-diluted. But there are a few potential reasons.

1. (most likely) Frequent short trips are interrupting a complete regen and the computer is adding each interrupted regen to a regen tally that estimates oil dilution.
2. (possible) The ECU remap has blocked the oil dilution owner's reset from working , resetting the oil dilution level to 0%
3. (possible) The increase of fuel pumped into the pistons from the Engine remap combined with my spirited driving could be forcing diesel into the sump and increasing the oil level.

Other stats:
the DPF was only at 54%
my current oil level is above the full mark on the dipstick (how concerned should I be about that?)

Because the ECU estimates the oil dilution level (not measure, estimates) by calculating it from how many regens, kilometers and other inputs, I think it is most likely to be option one.
During testing of the Diesels, Subar sent away oil samples that were apparently at 9-10% dilution only to have 90% them return a 1-2% dilution level. This further supports my belief.


Some important other information (especially for aussie owners)
There are some premium diesels that contain a very small percentage biofuel (Caltex is one of them) In my chat with the workshop manager he told me that he has seen other diesels performing poorly and some engines becomming clogged from the poor fuel. The UK should be ok because they use higher quality diesel but unless youre filling up in Australia with BP or Shell, you are damaging your diesel.

When changing your oil... A bulletin was sent out to the subaru workshops about an important proceedure for oil changes. Because it is a slow drain engine the car needs to be run for 15 minutes to warm up and the oil gets checked. If needed more oil can be added but another 15 minute run is required to warm the newly added oil and then the level checked again, rinse and repeat until level is ok. If it is not warmed up then too much oil can be added and if the time is not allowed for the oil to get right through the engine then the reading could be high and not have enough oil.

Finally something that came up as a side note. There was a case reported of a customer whos DPF had failed after being hot from a long drive and then driving through some cool water, the hot to cold change had warped the DPF and the sensor malfunctioned.


So the plan now is to wait out till my serviceat 12 months (march next year) and pop into the dealer before doing my oil reset to check the oil dilution level, performing the manual reset, then getting them to check it again to make sure that it worked. If it did then we know it was either cause one or three.
To rule out cause three I will be closely monitoring my oil levels from now on.

[suthol]

RESULTS ARE IN!

The problem was that the 'Oil Dilution' was at 10% (according to the ECU)
The solution was to reset the Oil Dilution with the dealers plugin tool.
What we dont know is the exact cause of why the ECU thought that the Oil was over-diluted. But there are a few potential reasons.

1. (most likely) Frequent short trips are interrupting a complete regen and the computer is adding each interrupted regen to a regen tally that estimates oil dilution.
2. (possible) The ECU remap has blocked the oil dilution owner's reset from working , resetting the oil dilution level to 0%
3. (possible) The increase of fuel pumped into the pistons from the Engine remap combined with my spirited driving could be forcing diesel into the sump and increasing the oil level.

Other stats:
the DPF was only at 54%
my current oil level is above the full mark on the dipstick (how concerned should I be about that?)

Because the ECU estimates the oil dilution level (not measure, estimates) by calculating it from how many regens, kilometers and other inputs, I think it is most likely to be option one.
During testing of the Diesels, Subar sent away oil samples that were apparently at 9-10% dilution only to have 90% them return a 1-2% dilution level. This further supports my belief.


Some important other information (especially for aussie owners)
There are some premium diesels that contain a very small percentage biofuel (Caltex is one of them) In my chat with the workshop manager he told me that he has seen other diesels performing poorly and some engines becomming clogged from the poor fuel. The UK should be ok because they use higher quality diesel but unless youre filling up in Australia with BP or Shell, you are damaging your diesel.

When changing your oil... A bulletin was sent out to the subaru workshops about an important proceedure for oil changes. Because it is a slow drain engine the car needs to be run for 15 minutes to warm up and the oil gets checked. If needed more oil can be added but another 15 minute run is required to warm the newly added oil and then the level checked again, rinse and repeat until level is ok. If it is not warmed up then too much oil can be added and if the time is not allowed for the oil to get right through the engine then the reading could be high and not have enough oil.

Finally something that came up as a side note. There was a case reported of a customer whos DPF had failed after being hot from a long drive and then driving through some cool water, the hot to cold change had warped the DPF and the sensor malfunctioned.


So the plan now is to wait out till my serviceat 12 months (march next year) and pop into the dealer before doing my oil reset to check the oil dilution level, performing the manual reset, then getting them to check it again to make sure that it worked. If it did then we know it was either cause one or three.
To rule out cause three I will be closely monitoring my oil levels from now on.

Good to hear.

I'd add that apart from one fill in the back of nowhere my Forester has only ever been filled with BP at a local servo where 4 diesel pumps run almost continuously.

[skipalami]

Well I finally got a fully fledged shudder again last night. That basically equates to 7-8 months without a shudder until last night.

The car has been threatening a shudder since saturday when I got what I think is rubbish fuel from a supermarket chain.

I suspect once I finish this tank, it will take a few tanks to clear its throat before I am shudder free again. I really think fuel quality is a major contributer to this shudder problem.

[Dikman]

Thanks for that, Geoffoz. You've only reinforced my belief that a (Subie) diesel is not for me. It definitely appears that it isn't a vehicle that can be used for short trips without the potential for problems occurring. Whilst I could work around it, my wife couldn't, she just wants a car she can get in and drive.

It seems to me that Subaru have some way to go before their diesel could be considered a suitable replacement for a petrol engine for the ordinary driver.
Shame, really.

(And the oil change procedure sounds like a real pain!).

As for having to be selective about which fuel to use, fat chance! As many of you no doubt know, when you go travelling you don't always have a choice. As an example, my Triumph Tiger requires minimum 95RON (it still pings under heavy load even on that). I've been to country servos where all they've had is 91RON, so I've had no choice. Unfortunately, there have been instances of piston failure in these bikes due to low octane fuel, which is a bit of a worry, so I've had to modify the timing maps so I can run safely on 91RON. Obviously, I'm not going to be able to adjust anything to compensate for crap fuel in a diesel.

Thus far, the negatives are outweighing the positives.

Like I said, a very good thread.

[Geoffoz]

I would still reccomend a forester every time, but not the diesel if you are making frequent short trips. Go with the X if you want to save fuel I drove an 09 X for a year and it was great.

I have made the swich to BP Diesel VAST IMPROVEMENT!

[Matt K]

Hey,

Have been thinking about getting a diesel forester until i read this thread!

I asked a Suburu salesman and he told me that the problem has been fixed and all new Forester from mid 2011 have a new catalytic convertor that solves the problem and allows normal around town driving.

Does anyone else know about this?

Matt