just looking at some pictures on http://www.cnet.com.au/toyota-86-first- ... ge#image11
and is it just me or does the ft 86 remind you of the vortex? other then the similarities of the coupe factors there are little features that remind of the vortex, especially the rear seats
ft 86
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thunder039
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discopotato03
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discopotato03
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Well in my opinion theres that much in the way of unique electronic control systems that once it really starts to muck up you'll have no chance of fixing or working around gremlins in time .
I'm already seeing people in current off roaders really filthy over gadegetry that tells them what they can and can't do .
Like I said once all the fancy electronics goes haywire first it traps you then it robs you .
When cars with things like electronic autos become write offs because the repairs cost more than the vehicles worth the writing is on the wall .
A 25 year old L Series is no Limo but at least their faults are known and the electricals are boringly conventional .
A .
I'm already seeing people in current off roaders really filthy over gadegetry that tells them what they can and can't do .
Like I said once all the fancy electronics goes haywire first it traps you then it robs you .
When cars with things like electronic autos become write offs because the repairs cost more than the vehicles worth the writing is on the wall .
A 25 year old L Series is no Limo but at least their faults are known and the electricals are boringly conventional .
A .
I just read the EVO magazine first test of the GT86 and the BRZ - I think it might change your mind.discopotato03 wrote:I think I'd rather do a clean MX5 . All the current garbage legislated into cars nowdays leaves me cold .
A .
They are saying it is a brilliant drivers car - ranking it better, or at least a good competitor to, the M3, 911 and Cayman - WOW !!!
Evo quote : It makes a Scirocco seem synthetic, an RCZ anaesthetised, a 3-series Coupé over-complicated. This is a pure driving device like an Elise or an MX-5 with sharpened sinews. This is how a proper sporting coupé should be.
Although with only 197hp its never going to be a straight line rocket - bring on the EZ36 or the STi Turbo version
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>>bring on the EZ36 or the STi Turbo version
Which takes a car specifically designed for handling to another nose-heavy overpowered "sports" car. Like the WRX. Or the MK4 Supra.
The only real issue with the FT86/BRZ is weight - it's just too heavy. Removing weight is a better option that adding HP.
If we do get the BRZ here, it will be an up-option on the FT. And given the MSRP of the Toyota is probably going to be $32-35k (based on US price of $25k USD, and UK price of 25k GBP), that means the BRZ is going to be in the $35-38k range. That's $7-10k less than a MX5.
Which takes a car specifically designed for handling to another nose-heavy overpowered "sports" car. Like the WRX. Or the MK4 Supra.
The only real issue with the FT86/BRZ is weight - it's just too heavy. Removing weight is a better option that adding HP.
If we do get the BRZ here, it will be an up-option on the FT. And given the MSRP of the Toyota is probably going to be $32-35k (based on US price of $25k USD, and UK price of 25k GBP), that means the BRZ is going to be in the $35-38k range. That's $7-10k less than a MX5.
1989 Brumby - Shiny new red paint, stroked EJ20 phase 2 SOHC with Darton sleeves bored to EJ22, Wiseco high-compression pistons, Delta 2000 grind cams , EJ/XT6 5 stud with WRX 4/2 pots, 5-speed, 86 GTS seats and so much more.
Contact me for reproduction XT6 hubs...and EA82 rear discs.
Contact me for reproduction XT6 hubs...and EA82 rear discs.
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discopotato03
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From what I have read they are light at (I think 1200 Kg) though its hard to see a ~ 2L 200 fly Hp four and particularly an emissions one being torquey down low . Flat fours have issues with the unconventional (compared to an inline four) firing order and the distance between the front and rear sets of exhaust ports being not easy to merge . What this means is scavanging won't be as ideal as an inline four cylinder can be .
What I like about the second series MX5s is the slightly more advanced (compare to their first series) engine management system that does ECU controlled ignition timing as well as fueling and used I think a MAF rather than a vane AFM .
I think they weighed a little over 1000 Kg and have 50 50 weight distribution front to back . They use a DOHC16v BP 1800 engine with belt driven cams .
Light agile and done to death turbo conversions . Heaps of performance goodies out there for them .
I can't see an 86 getting anywhere near an M3 but to be truthful I only know a little about E36s and with 300 Hp /again equal weight distribution / not much more weight my moneys on the M3 .
I can see why these (86) don't have AWD and I put it down to cost weight and packaging . You see the problem with the Subaru AWD driveline is that the engine sits a long way forward of the gearbox to allow room for the front diffs crownwheel , and you can't sit the engine and box reward to compensate because then the front drive shafts angularity kills the CV and DOJs .
Wen you omit that front diff the bellhousing can be a lot shorter allowing the engine to sit further back in relation to the front wheels center line .
When you reduce to 2WD you potentially half the available traction meaning wheelspin compensates for drivetrain overloading .
I think what Toyota and Subaru are aiming at is a smallish sporty car that the social misfits can spin the wheels a do opposite lock slides in - drift lunacy .
Toyotas Sprinter/Trueno AE86 platform could do these sorts of things if set up that way - useless for anything else if you did but so is everything else in that vein .
I think AE86s bit the dust back in about 1985 so for toyota its been mainly FrWD since with the odd AWD like Celica/All Trac AWDs .
Anyway time with the new 86 will tell . I just think legislation forced on the manufacturers by the socialist eco Nazis will screw all new vehicles with farcical attemps to make them fool proof with electronics . The trouble is that the more they try to improve "safety" the less people think they have to drive responsibly - they blindly think the cars smarts will save them so the skills base degrades . Lethargy driven diminished responsibility ?
I think I'll stick to cars up to 99-2000 because after that they all have questionable electronic genetics and moronic design rules that are too hard to fight .
Fools make the rules and won't let the truth alter their idealistic bents .
A .
What I like about the second series MX5s is the slightly more advanced (compare to their first series) engine management system that does ECU controlled ignition timing as well as fueling and used I think a MAF rather than a vane AFM .
I think they weighed a little over 1000 Kg and have 50 50 weight distribution front to back . They use a DOHC16v BP 1800 engine with belt driven cams .
Light agile and done to death turbo conversions . Heaps of performance goodies out there for them .
I can't see an 86 getting anywhere near an M3 but to be truthful I only know a little about E36s and with 300 Hp /again equal weight distribution / not much more weight my moneys on the M3 .
I can see why these (86) don't have AWD and I put it down to cost weight and packaging . You see the problem with the Subaru AWD driveline is that the engine sits a long way forward of the gearbox to allow room for the front diffs crownwheel , and you can't sit the engine and box reward to compensate because then the front drive shafts angularity kills the CV and DOJs .
Wen you omit that front diff the bellhousing can be a lot shorter allowing the engine to sit further back in relation to the front wheels center line .
When you reduce to 2WD you potentially half the available traction meaning wheelspin compensates for drivetrain overloading .
I think what Toyota and Subaru are aiming at is a smallish sporty car that the social misfits can spin the wheels a do opposite lock slides in - drift lunacy .
Toyotas Sprinter/Trueno AE86 platform could do these sorts of things if set up that way - useless for anything else if you did but so is everything else in that vein .
I think AE86s bit the dust back in about 1985 so for toyota its been mainly FrWD since with the odd AWD like Celica/All Trac AWDs .
Anyway time with the new 86 will tell . I just think legislation forced on the manufacturers by the socialist eco Nazis will screw all new vehicles with farcical attemps to make them fool proof with electronics . The trouble is that the more they try to improve "safety" the less people think they have to drive responsibly - they blindly think the cars smarts will save them so the skills base degrades . Lethargy driven diminished responsibility ?
I think I'll stick to cars up to 99-2000 because after that they all have questionable electronic genetics and moronic design rules that are too hard to fight .
Fools make the rules and won't let the truth alter their idealistic bents .
A .
It only weighs 1190kg - pretty bloody light nowadays.
And I wouldn't hold my breath for an EJ or EZ version - the FA20 motor in it is mounted to a Lexus 6 speed so the bolt pattern won't match the EJ/EZ and as far as I have read the FA is not the same as the new Impreza motor coming later either. So that counts out easy custom swaps as well.
More from EVO article :
What's it like to drive?
It restores your faith in cars. No excuses, no unsaid undercurrent that makes the best of the fact that cars are generally becoming more synthetic and less involving to drive. The GT 86 is a complete cracker.
Here's why. Our encounter took place on the Sodeguara racetrack outside Tokyo, full of bends and dips and lightly coated with rain. You need a car with sensitive controls for a track like that, and within half a lap you feel completely at ease in the GT 86 as rush right up to its limits. Via possibly the best electric steering system we've yet encountered, with much more subtle sensitivity than the new 911's system and a more mechnically-connected feel about the centre, you can exploit a balance perfectly tunable with the tiniest throttle inputs. Take a corner briskly and there's stabilising understeer; accelerate a bit and the understeer vanishes as the tail starts to dominate. From there to a drift is a land of opportunity with abundant signposting. Seldom is a car so up for a friendly game.
The brakes are similarly progressive, while the engine does its best work at high revs where it emits a beaty rasp somewhere between the sound of an Alfasud and a regular Subaru, but without the bass throb. Six closely stacked gear ratios make the best of the engine's peakiness.
Sunds like a brilliant drivers car
And I wouldn't hold my breath for an EJ or EZ version - the FA20 motor in it is mounted to a Lexus 6 speed so the bolt pattern won't match the EJ/EZ and as far as I have read the FA is not the same as the new Impreza motor coming later either. So that counts out easy custom swaps as well.
More from EVO article :
What's it like to drive?
It restores your faith in cars. No excuses, no unsaid undercurrent that makes the best of the fact that cars are generally becoming more synthetic and less involving to drive. The GT 86 is a complete cracker.
Here's why. Our encounter took place on the Sodeguara racetrack outside Tokyo, full of bends and dips and lightly coated with rain. You need a car with sensitive controls for a track like that, and within half a lap you feel completely at ease in the GT 86 as rush right up to its limits. Via possibly the best electric steering system we've yet encountered, with much more subtle sensitivity than the new 911's system and a more mechnically-connected feel about the centre, you can exploit a balance perfectly tunable with the tiniest throttle inputs. Take a corner briskly and there's stabilising understeer; accelerate a bit and the understeer vanishes as the tail starts to dominate. From there to a drift is a land of opportunity with abundant signposting. Seldom is a car so up for a friendly game.
The brakes are similarly progressive, while the engine does its best work at high revs where it emits a beaty rasp somewhere between the sound of an Alfasud and a regular Subaru, but without the bass throb. Six closely stacked gear ratios make the best of the engine's peakiness.
Sunds like a brilliant drivers car
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thunder039
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Yeah a turbo version (especially 2.5 or 3.0l 6 cyl) wouldn't be a cheap sports car - it'd be a cheap SUPERCARthunder039 wrote:i have also read the evo article and they seem to love the car! the car looks fantastic too i might add. WAY better then the girly looking MX5. subaru and toyota have already said there will be NO turbo option due to defeats the purpose of a CHEAP sports coupe
cheers
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looks like they may be making a turbo engine for one of these yet...http://jalopnik.com/5865228/subaru-conf ... Subaru-BRZ
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Busdriver, 91 L Enduro Wagon, stock ,for now.
Lots of Ks,A/C, MP3 sometimes(if its not dark) singing steering wheel cover which I listen too when its dark.
Suby Newbie
Lots of Ks,A/C, MP3 sometimes(if its not dark) singing steering wheel cover which I listen too when its dark.
Suby Newbie
I probably should clarify that the article doesnt say anything about one of these going into this particular car though.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Busdriver, 91 L Enduro Wagon, stock ,for now.
Lots of Ks,A/C, MP3 sometimes(if its not dark) singing steering wheel cover which I listen too when its dark.
Suby Newbie
Lots of Ks,A/C, MP3 sometimes(if its not dark) singing steering wheel cover which I listen too when its dark.
Suby Newbie
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thunder039
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I have read that toyota are working on a supercharger! for this.
Also if has been designed with aftermarket mods in mind even the ecu is left unlocked so it can be remapped. Expect to see turbo kits for these within months.
It was their goal to keep them simple and cheap and let the owners modify as they please!
Also if has been designed with aftermarket mods in mind even the ecu is left unlocked so it can be remapped. Expect to see turbo kits for these within months.
It was their goal to keep them simple and cheap and let the owners modify as they please!
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thunder039
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discopotato03
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But will cap on backwards crowd wonder where's the turbo torque and AWD .
Well it looks like the front diff made space to get the engine back further but now theres no room for the dryer or plumbing .
And then there's that fancy direct injection thats a lot more difficult to do anything with ... Actually all the fandangled electronics thats not really cost effective to do anything with .
I wonder if its possible to turn the ASC off and see if there's any real old fashion handling prowess about the thing . And of course you'd have to disable the ABS to see if the brakes work properly in actual reality land .
Electronics in steering - god help us ...
Nup , much more performance/handling/steering/braking available out here in second hand land .
I really don't know who did worse , Tojo for taking on a water cooled Dak Dak motor or Zoobaru for losing the all paw and dryer .
Either way the retro will be easy meat for WRXs and Evos ...
The better ones start with 206 kw and 240 is easy to get , and they can get it to the ground . And owe you a lot less than 30Gs
I will admit an MX5/Miata is not exactly a masculine looking car but at least they are a real roadster and a bit of a weapon in turbo form . Best of all most of their systems are conventional - good old mechanical/electrical/hydraulics meaning you have some chance of working on them and substituting some non std parts if you can't get/afford originals .
Up until recently you could still get grey import AE86 Truenos or if real lucky a Corolla GT which was the real twin cam efi version of the AE86 Sprinter we got here . If you wanted to be a purist you'd get better street cred with a clean one of those , and like all the old greezo shop posters claimed about Chiko Rolls - You can't beat the original .
Well it looks like the front diff made space to get the engine back further but now theres no room for the dryer or plumbing .
And then there's that fancy direct injection thats a lot more difficult to do anything with ... Actually all the fandangled electronics thats not really cost effective to do anything with .
I wonder if its possible to turn the ASC off and see if there's any real old fashion handling prowess about the thing . And of course you'd have to disable the ABS to see if the brakes work properly in actual reality land .
Electronics in steering - god help us ...
Nup , much more performance/handling/steering/braking available out here in second hand land .
I really don't know who did worse , Tojo for taking on a water cooled Dak Dak motor or Zoobaru for losing the all paw and dryer .
Either way the retro will be easy meat for WRXs and Evos ...
The better ones start with 206 kw and 240 is easy to get , and they can get it to the ground . And owe you a lot less than 30Gs
I will admit an MX5/Miata is not exactly a masculine looking car but at least they are a real roadster and a bit of a weapon in turbo form . Best of all most of their systems are conventional - good old mechanical/electrical/hydraulics meaning you have some chance of working on them and substituting some non std parts if you can't get/afford originals .
Up until recently you could still get grey import AE86 Truenos or if real lucky a Corolla GT which was the real twin cam efi version of the AE86 Sprinter we got here . If you wanted to be a purist you'd get better street cred with a clean one of those , and like all the old greezo shop posters claimed about Chiko Rolls - You can't beat the original .
hmmm 12.5:1 compression ratio - that turbo kit better have low comp pistons in it.78sti wrote:I have read that toyota are working on a supercharger! for this.
Also if has been designed with aftermarket mods in mind even the ecu is left unlocked so it can be remapped. Expect to see turbo kits for these within months.
It was their goal to keep them simple and cheap and let the owners modify as they please!
Did you read the EVO test I posted ?discopotato03 wrote:But will cap on backwards crowd wonder where's the turbo torque and AWD .
Well it looks like the front diff made space to get the engine back further but now theres no room for the dryer or plumbing .
And then there's that fancy direct injection thats a lot more difficult to do anything with ... Actually all the fandangled electronics thats not really cost effective to do anything with .
I wonder if its possible to turn the ASC off and see if there's any real old fashion handling prowess about the thing . And of course you'd have to disable the ABS to see if the brakes work properly in actual reality land .
Electronics in steering - god help us ...
Nup , much more performance/handling/steering/braking available out here in second hand land .
I really don't know who did worse , Tojo for taking on a water cooled Dak Dak motor or Zoobaru for losing the all paw and dryer .
Either way the retro will be easy meat for WRXs and Evos ...
The better ones start with 206 kw and 240 is easy to get , and they can get it to the ground . And owe you a lot less than 30Gs
I will admit an MX5/Miata is not exactly a masculine looking car but at least they are a real roadster and a bit of a weapon in turbo form . Best of all most of their systems are conventional - good old mechanical/electrical/hydraulics meaning you have some chance of working on them and substituting some non std parts if you can't get/afford originals .
Up until recently you could still get grey import AE86 Truenos or if real lucky a Corolla GT which was the real twin cam efi version of the AE86 Sprinter we got here . If you wanted to be a purist you'd get better street cred with a clean one of those , and like all the old greezo shop posters claimed about Chiko Rolls - You can't beat the original .
Sounds like it is a real drivers car. Even the electrically assisted steering is supposedly better than the new 911's.
If it is as good they say then I think they are definitely on a winner. If it comes out close to $30k then I would consider buying one for sure.
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