ethanol blended fuels

julian · Post by **julian** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:34 pm

In Adelaide an independant chain of fuel stations is selling 10% ethanol blended in to their fuels with a rated octane number of 95.
It is also considerably cheaper than regular fuel and considerably cheaper than its premium 95RON "pure" counterparts.

What will this fuel do to conventional fuel systems?
What other desirable/undesirable effects does it have?

Julian

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:38 pm

I may be wrong, but I thought Subaru engines didn't tolerate ethanol blended fuel very well. Engine pinging and reduced power.

Jack

julian · Post by **julian** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:44 pm

I havent tried it myself- my skeptical attitude led me to post here...
Any experience? Any links to technical info?

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:50 pm

I found this info dated 30 September 2005 .............

Subaru and Ethanol

For your information the situation with Subaru vehicles is as follows: -

All Subaru Liberty, Impreza, Forester and Outback vehicles produced after Model Year 1990 with the exception of Liberty B4 and Impreza WRX STi MY99 & MY00 models are able to operate on a maximum of 10% Ethanol blend (E10).
All model year Liberty B4 and Impreza WRX STi MY99-00 models may experience starting and or drivability concerns if ethanol blended fuel of any level is used and therefore we do not recommend its use.
For all other Subaru models including but not limited to ‘L Series’ and Brumby, FHI has no test data for these models when operating on ethanol and therefore we cannot recommend its use.
Important

Because Fuji Heavy Industries (the maker of Subaru vehicles) has done no testing on Ethanol blends greater than 10% we do NOT recommend using fuel containing greater than 10% Ethanol.

Ethanol blends greater than 10% may cause driveability problems and or operating system component parts failure such as; -

Fuel line (hose, injector-sealing, delivery pipe, pump, regulator)
Exhaust (EPR, Muffler)
Failures and or drivability issues caused by greater than 10% ethanol use and or fuel not meeting the minimum standard prescribed in the owners handbook will not be covered by warranty.

http://subaru.com.au/news/?newsid=12342

Jack

MUDRAT · Post by **MUDRAT** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:53 pm

Unfortunately, my old post on this subject has gone (at least I searched and I can't find it).

Basically, ethanol is a good fuel for an internal combustion engine when blended with gasoline. There are dozens of web sites that can offer you as deep an explanation of this as you need, I'm sure you can find some yourself.

Unfortunately, as good a fuel as ethanol is it makes a better solvent. Luckily, Subaru uses Neoprene in their fuel systems (instead of rubber) so ethanol won't harm these pieces.

The down side is long term testing of ethanol blended fuels has not been carried out in Australia, what Subaru have done in that press release is simply covered their ass. I would do the same in their position.

_curlie_ · Post by **_curlie_** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:49 am

well i am no expert on the matter , what i can tell you is that i have a ej22 in my L series and when i put $20 worth of e95 cheap feul in and the car started surging and loosing power and it took 3 tanks of other feul to clear it .

in saying that i also thought it may have been electrical so i took to all the electrical connectors with compressed air. i also used compressed air on the spark plug leads.

so not sure which it was but all is good again

PeeJay · Post by **PeeJay** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:05 am

I've been running almost 100% ethanol blend in my EJ20G since Feb and it seems to make no difference. I have noticed some small pinging at high boost but I think that's more to do with the air/water IC that's not connected (ie interheater) and the fact that the computer light always stays on (limp mode I guess, but it sure dosen't feel like it!)

Oh, and I forgot to mention - for the first 4 tanks or so the fuel consumption went DOWN!

Gannon · Post by **Gannon** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:27 pm

PeeJay wrote:I've been running almost 100% ethanol blend in my EJ20G

Do you mean 10%?

PeeJay wrote: Oh, and I forgot to mention - for the first 4 tanks or so the fuel consumption went DOWN!

So after the 4 tanks, how much has your fuel consumption improved since then?

I think that ethanol is not half as bad as car manufactures make out.
Did anyone see "Beyond Tomorrow" (Wed 7:30pm on Prime) a few weeks ago, It showed that Brazil has been using ethanol blend and pure ethanol fuels for over 20 years.

Who is to say that the major car manufacturers dont have shares in the profits of oil companies?

PeeJay · Post by **PeeJay** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:47 pm

sorry, almost 100% ethanol blend = I rarely use anything else but 10% blend

Fuel consumption started at 10.something per 100k, then it went to 9.3l/100k, now it's back at 10 with the lift and big tyres.

ed13 · Post by **ed13** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:38 pm

I lived in Brazil for 2 years and they have more than 20% ethanol in their petrol and some cars have problems some don't. The problem with ethanol is it eats the rubber seals and after 5000 - 10000km you have to do major overhaul of the engine. Reason for this is the engine timing is out as ethanol and petrol do not have th esame timing. I know my car had to have timing reajusted so it runs OK and with less power for sure (but this is Brazil). As for Australia I am not sure how much this ethanol affects timing of our Subarus and therefore it's difficult to say is it bad or not. The less Ethanol th ebetter for sure. Also as far as I remeber Subaru uses different material rather than rubber for seals. So here you are.

Cheers
Ed13

dfoyl · Post by **dfoyl** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:11 pm

I had no problems at all on my stock EA81 running ethanol on a trip along the NSW coast. I've also used it down here in Melbourne (pretty uncommon down here, only 1 chain I see regularly sells it) and it's been fine. Car does seem to run a touch warmer, which is not unexpected as the octane rating is higher but no adjustment has been made to timing...

Dean.

Chris_Rogers · Post by **Chris_Rogers** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:26 pm

I use the 98 octane stuff in mine. it helps with power and no ill effects so far./

Rob_D · Post by **Rob_D** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:43 pm

The Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries (FCAI) on their website lists vehicles that can and cannot run on E5 and E10:

http://www.fcai.com.au/ethanol.php/2007 ... 00005.html

They say that tyhe following are unsuitable:

All Subaru (before 1990)
Subaru Liberty B4 (2002 to 2003)
Subaru Liberty GT (2004 - 2006)
Impreza WRX STI (1999 to 2005)

And that the following can run on E5 and E10

All models post MY1990 except above.

Rob

AlpineRaven · Post by **AlpineRaven** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:47 am

I've used E10 in my Liberty EJ22, it seems to chew more fuel than standard unleaded, when using E10 works out to be close same value as standard unleaded so i'd rather use unleaded over E10 which you do not know what kind of damage it could be doing.
If E10 has been on market for 20 plus years in Australia then I would think differently.
Cheers
AP

dwayneb · Post by **dwayneb** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:16 am

Looks like most of the BP's that I have filled up at have an ethanol blend. You wouldn't know, there is only a small label on the top of the pump, and no discount for it, unless you have registered a card, then it is 3cpl off.

FROG · Post by **FROG** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:57 am

AlpineRaven wrote: If E10 has been on market for 20 plus years in Australia then I would think differently.
Cheers
AP

yep let someone else do the trials stick with what you know works for now
my 2 cents anyway

SUBYDAZZ · Post by **SUBYDAZZ** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:53 pm

The Australian motoring bodies say that in general cars designed after 1986 can usually run an ethanol blend, but to check with manufacturer. E10 will give about 3% less mileage to the tank, but it is higher octane than standard ULP.

AlpineRaven · Post by **AlpineRaven** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:28 pm

dwayneb wrote:Looks like most of the BP's that I have filled up at have an ethanol blend. You wouldn't know, there is only a small label on the top of the pump, and no discount for it, unless you have registered a card, then it is 3cpl off.

BP doesnt have ethanol blend down here?
Cheers
AP

subybrumby · Post by **subybrumby** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:59 pm

I'm sure we covered this somewhere else on the forum...but anyway

I have a stock ea 81 brumby and ran it on ethanol awhile back...

The ethanol was being offered up for 4c litre cheaper and was 95 octane.

A few weeks later the brumby just stopped in the middle of toowoomba. I got it going again and it went for a bit further and stopped again. I ended up removing and stripping the carb and there was contamination in the jets. I totallay cleaned the system, new filters and new tank of BP ultimate. Never had anymore problems. Only run on BP ultimate now which is 98 octane I think.

I had been mixing fuels a bit, sometimes ultimate 98 octane, sometimes ethanol and I have been told thats not the way to go. Stay on ethanol all the time if you are going to run it apparently. However I only use BP ultimate, the brumby runs good and I have had no further problems...That's my story anyway on my experience with ethanol.. (PS. Ethanol is not cheaper anymore anyway here in toowoomba))

SUBYDAZZ · Post by **SUBYDAZZ** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:21 am

Perhaps it was just a co-incidence also. Hard to tell. Maybe if you mixed fuels some more and needed to do it again?

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