No Clutch after engine swap :(

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:27 am

Just swapped out EA81 from in front of an L 5 speed DR 4WD box in the Brumby

Just successfully swapped in an EA82

Just noticed extreme laid back look of the clutch fork

the fork goes way back to the end of the cables adjuster and then some, pedal has no feel to it, goes to the floor with adjuster nut at its end

more poop ! ??

I used a different (but the same) fork on reassemble, one I found i marked as 1989 mpfi 5 sp L series, is black, looks same shape, size etc done lot less kms which is why I swapped.The clutch and flywheel is from a FWD Vortex turbo which had exactly the same shape/size clutch fork.

The parts manual suggests there is only one clutch fork for all EA82 L Series and Vortex.

Surely the clutch is the same for EA82T 5 speed FWD ??

Just measured between the forward most face of the clutch fork where the cable sits - on two cars

The problem car is 118mm from the front face to the bellhousing join.
The L Series EA82 with five speed is 105mm

a look into the timing aperture of the bellhousing at the top, the flywheel looks the same sort of position for ring gear

Any clues ??

Does not feel like it has come off its pivot ball on the box.

Wll, I can confirm this has not happened. Never found this before, with cable out of the way, rubber dust boot (30542AA000 - one for Wayno) slips up and off, some light on th subject and can see as clear as day that everything is nice and in place. Just been comparing things. Pivot ball and shaft on several L 5MT 4WD and one 2WD 5MT-T boxes and getting ~35mm and ~40mm total lengths ! 5mm further down the leverage point could be the difference ?

There are also 4 different flywheel part numbers with 4WD and 2WD being different. Maybe 4WD thicker and heavier recall someone saying to use a 2WD flywheel for more zippy. All pivots have been superceded to an EJ/Liberty part number .....

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:36 am

OK.

clutch kit used is from EA82T FWD Vortex - same listing as 4WD L Series EA82's

flywheel used is from same, and measure same thickness as other 4WD flywheels ~38mm measured at the edge.

the clutch fork used - have driven the donor car, was OK

WTFrig can go wrong trying to install an L 4WD box to an L engine ?? The EA81 fitted better !

The clutch forks pivot ball fitting looks same length...yet to confirm. They only spin onto the box with an M8? thread, expected bulkier.
The plan is to grab one, and give it a sex change cut off its thread, drill and tap, make up a stud and spacer arrangement to see what I can get...but , bugger, surely should not have to go to these lengths - for L stuff ??

If anyone has an EA82 handy out of car with clutch still on the back of it .....

I just measured stuff up with a 300mm steel rule across the body of the pressure plate bolted to flywheel.

The gap from there to fingers is about 1 mm.
The rule is 20mm off the back of the ring gear
27mm proud of the mating face.
Measured up a coupla boxes to find all is the same

- the tip of the input shaft is 40mm proud of the front face of the bell housing
- from the front face to the tip of the pivot ball is about 45mm
all the pivots are about 35 ~ 36mm
tricky measuring , as some are fully domed, others have the tip flattened off, with a little grea-sess

gunk up with hard stuff that was once grease.

I realise that the difference measured at the cable end is about 13mm is maginified by the lever, may just be a simple packing washer of a few mm at the pivot will do it.
Other measures of other clutches would be useful if anyone has them and time ?

Is a new never really used Valeo pressure plate with excedy friction plate in 225mm - surely can only be the 4WD Subiee one ?

Came on a wreck so no packaging to check ....

bloody hell, so much checking...to find the essentially never used clutch packs down lower than all the old clutches I have found and importantly, about 4mm less than the clutch pack running behind the EA81 just pulled out. So, just add a head bolt washer to the pivot without compromising strength and reliability for test purposes, I hope, to make up for same sort of loss from clutch change. Got the 118mm down to 100mm, but does not feel like a real clutch yet

getting there....

Dawning on me now that an L clutch pedal with longer throw, or better leverage may need to be added to the L driveline stuff.

Measured cable pull at fork - working L sedan 24mm, project 15mm
If I add the L pedal to whole thing which seems sensible approach, needs more work on pedal box. Start to justify things - later Brumby used bigger 225mm clutch , no pedal change ?
Putting the rest of it together to see if I can get it running, see if I have any decent clutch....

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:21 pm

Gees, waiting for the ever knowledgable Paul from RSR performance to poke his head in here with the answer....

The logic of it all is messing with my head!

Just a few things ....the donor flywheel and clutch - came off behind an EA82T FWD - should be same as 4WD clutch and the numbers add up.

After looking at a clutch cable from the FWD, its inner is longer so may have more pull, and the Vortex pedal boxes are different, so, again may have more pull length in the Vortex situation.

Surely should not have had to add a 4mm packer - to get some sort of clutch - got a CRUNCH and cannot select any gears. It has taken a few goes to get one right, but have cut the thread off the pivot, drilled it nice and deep almost through to ball end, still gotta make thread in MK3, but have a nice 8.8 grade thread all the way bolt to swipe its shaft, screw it in the box, add another head washer spacer and cross me fingers as engine goes back in- still gotta come out again so can do this.

So many have pinched Vortex stuff, swapped it about - no dramas surely ?

If I think about it, I had an EA82T suposedly pulled from a Vortex, though not its original, and I have had it running, clutching - no dicky problems like this ?

Flywheels and clutches getting a good gong very soon me thinks - microscope

Was beginning to suss that the flywheel housing may have been different thickness ......

Looked closer at L pedal throw, no look like it will do anything

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:33 pm

This is redickerless !

Thinking out loud away from vehicle, feel free to talk amongst yourselfs while I try nu this out.....

Engine is out again.

Added another two head bolt washers 3.9 for one, 7.7mm for two, three was pushing the limits of the slider of the throwout bearing and shoving bearing face out too proud - making it only 22mm in from the mating face.

Measure up the mating face of engine to clutch extreme - just with a flat rule across back of clutch circular wire ring on the fingers 27mm less a mm down to fingers ..26mm.

This pokes outside the line of the mating face.

4mm too much mashing into throw out bearing.

Reduce three washers down to two ?? Or one and a half ?

Surely it is time to just try another flywheel and clutch just to measure up ??

Or put me reliable old EA81 back in ??

Subydoug · Post by **Subydoug** » Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:29 pm

Did you use the same flywheel that was on the EA81 when it worked? or have you swapped to an ea82 flywheel? If so measure both flywheels (from the mating face of the fibre plate to the mating face of the flywheel to crank) and see if they are different. If you cant fit the old ea81 flywheel, measure up the other ones you have. Thats about all I got mate, short of pulling my motor out. Sorry, I dont like you that much

.

If there is anything that you need measured off of a FWD vortex that can be done without massive dis-assembly I can do it as its all stock.

Regards

Doug

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:59 pm

No, Doug, I have gone aall EA82 from front crank bolt right through to the rear diff plug !

I have measured up the fitted flywheel at the ring gear, and beyond, back to the chamfer, and compared, but, you know, the flywheel I used to compare might have been a FWD flywheel from another engine I bought, but weighed up the EA81 200mm flywheel, with its 200mm Sube pressure plate and Gemini friction plate got about 16kg, the other sample came up about another keg.

I had the EA81 flywheel and clutch combo with cover bolts tightened down , sat side by side, flat on concrete with another flywheel and same brand of pressure plate.

Here, I found the previous fitted EA81 combo was 4mm fatter than the EA82 sample.
Was right there I could see where the 4mm spacer plate for the starter motor came into the measure when it was EA81 stuff mated to L 5 speed. PLace that spacer under EA82 flywheel on concrete just for comparison, and ring gear lined up flush !

Spacer is now not needed if EA82 stays

I have just slid engine back in - four times in a row for those splines - YAHOO !

The pivot now has one head bolt washer 3.89mm and another slightly less gal washer behind it. Fit fork and bearing, measure across from front face - 300mm steel rule just reaches, another normally useless metric/imperial 150mm steel rule butted up to front face of throwout bearing and got 30mm to mating face - which gives the 4mm gap to the clutch fingers. Should be nice and just what is needed.

Just a bolt to hold stuff together and pushed out of shed for the night. Not prepared for poey mood tonight if it wants to upset me better be tomorrow after work!
Never studied the protusion measures V's depths of gearbox fittings before !!

Another learning curve

Thanks for the offers, short of pulling motor out (it's an engine anyway

) hmm, be curious how far back from the mating faces the front face of the clutch fork sits at cable centre, don't go to too much trouble yet, i may have cured it - or my Subaru disease

.
I have used a metal tape, on lock, plastic taped to inlet, held clip over fork top, depressed clutch to have tape drag out on lock - got 24mm on working L , only 15mm on this with one washer - reckon I have now got a good inch pull. Will know tomorrow

I had 118mm !! , my 4WD L has 104mm, one washer behind pivot brought 118mm down to 100.Not measured it since 2 washers but fork is now closer to front of fork hole at bell top. Only needs to pull back eh ?

This whole exercise is almost just that a short term exercise in readiness for melding an L turbo sedan into my new Brumby. This one is an upgrade of cutch as well. Old clutch friction plate has some minor cracks starting to appear

so too the welds in the exhaust port of the EA82 heads

Might be a steam engine yet ! Just been looking closely at them, newly serviced about four years ago and stored.

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:56 am

All I have done since is measure the forks pull distance - is still 15mm, whereas the L has 24mm. The only difference now would be the MY pedal is doing the task, not an L pedal.
The difference between L and MY clutch pedal is in the levers cable hole is further from the pedal shaft which in theory would seem to have more pull or just softer pedal ?

The clutch pedal feels good but if I haven't gained any more pullimetres don't think it is gonna improve the crunch at all. What I have achieved is more cable adjustment thread than before.

Think I had better continue with pedal box convrsion for an L pedal....

Silverbullet · Post by **Silverbullet** » Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:33 am

Yes L pedal = more lever travel so to speak so the cable gets pulled further. Nice and easy to swap since the pedal shaft diameter is the same, just have to mount the L series cable mounting block with 2x m6 bolts. Also have to space that block out from the pedal box or the cable is held at a strange angle.

Post by **TOONGA** » Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:11 am

So ... you don't have the modded pedal box to go with everything else you have done... DOH

TOONGA

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:21 pm

Well, it is a modded pedal box, done back in 2005 when the L5MTDR went in with L cable, EA81 flywheel, p.plate, gemini friction plate.

Then, last Sunday whacked the two different pedals on a shaft and ,well, tried a bench test, and really could not see the pivot hole of the L pedal move any more than the MY pedal. I set up a rest spot each extreme of pedal travel and held a rule along the arc of the pivot hole travel. Can now suspect it is not finish point to start point to be measured to achieve resulting improvment - more the distance of the arcs!

All the theory in my head said the L pedal would pull further, just my hands on presentation screwed up

Just not got time to work through my Thomas/Finney 9th edit. of Calculus - friggin' near 1200 pages to get lost in !

Have done so this morning, cut a plate of 2mm mild steel to rivet to the side, cut, drilled and tapped a mounting block of 10mm thick aluminium bar to it holds its own, played with angles to ensure it is straight pull at the tougher end of its job and changed the fork travel from 15~16mm to 35 mm !! Allow for some minor adjustments for pedal travel limiter and shouldd have it down to same 24mm of my L sedan.

Back in the day of initial conversion most commentators used smaller dia fly, EA81 clutch and no need to change clutch pedal. Only when you go all L Series drive train stuff looks like the pedal is needed. With MY pedal the cable adjustment was pretty much at its limit - at the cable end of adjustment.All this fiddling has it halfway. And some, said to either use the L Series pedal box , which would require some work to fit the different looking thing - so, suspected there was some experienced BS floating about some keyboards at the time

!

Silverbullet wrote:Yes L pedal = more lever travel so to speak so the cable gets pulled further. Nice and easy to swap since the pedal shaft diameter is the same, just have to mount the L series cable mounting block with 2x m6 bolts. Also have to space that block out from the pedal box or the cable is held at a strange angle.

The above is a pretty good effort from someone still driving MY drivetrain, some pretty plain MY drivetrain at that

or have you done this to the 'bullet Sam ? Still itching to hear your screams when the twin port gets up and boogies !!

Just found this by an on again/off again member

commenting on MY pedal boxes crapping out

RSR 555 wrote:Yep.. it's a pretty commen problem. I would suggest you buy some 3mm flat plate, about 150mm square but it will need cutting to shape. I also recommend you buy an L.Series clutch cable and make the 2 go together. I have done this a few times in the past but unfortunately didn't take any pictures The reason for the L.Series clutch cable is because it is longer it doesn't try and side load the pedal box when the pedal is pressed down. But this is also a good start to fitting a 5 speed in your Brumby

Was thinking MY clutch cables have there short comings when it comes to after market choice and the way they fit versus an L cable fitment. Words of wisdom from Paul once again!

How embarassment

just because my bench testing of pedal throws showed no joy, didn't bother to install an L pedal with all the mods required to do so 9 20 mins ? work ) I have stuffed three pivots now ! Pinched my nearly last one, pulled engine out again - almost comes out on its own no - so well trained

, shoved non hrassed one in, no washers, donk back where it should be with a wedge holding rocker/chassis clearances even until I tighten things up. Just tested the pull of the L pedal, standard pivot, L 5MT DR, EA82M , EA82T FWD clutch and flywheel got 25mm pull - essentially same as my gLta has.

Must be on a good thing , finally, and can also see why someone might use an L radiator, or Vortex - despite the shouts to retain the MY one. If an L radiator goes in , with some mounting mods, no hose mods required.

A challenge for Jules (who gets supervision by one of the better Subaru mechanics - my mates into V8's or got training on Yugo10's and fiats - so no help coming from them! )to search and show me where in this forum, or others, that says to use the L pedal in L running gear install in MY or Brumby with the reasons of what you will get if you don't !!

RSR 555 · Post by **RSR 555** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:13 pm

Hello.. did someone say my name?

coxy · Post by **coxy** » Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:23 pm

Gee Paul by the time Steptoe fitted and removed the engine twenty eight times just to have an EA 82 Turbo in a Brumby he could have done 2 EJ conversions or built a reliable EA81 Turbo from scratch using some of those EA82 Turbo bits and all with less hassle!!

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:21 am

Just used less parts, bought nothing, cost nothing, the pedal was in stock - was even due for an oil change on the old EA81

RSR 555 · Post by **RSR 555** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:44 pm

hahahahaha.. yeah.. just go EJ Jonno

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:54 am

coxy wrote:Gee Paul by the time Steptoe fitted and removed the engine twenty eight times just to have an EA 82 Turbo in a Brumby he could have done 2 EJ conversions or built a reliable EA81 Turbo from scratch using some of those EA82 Turbo bits and all with less hassle!!

says the man last time I saw had an EA81 with only obvious modification being an external Italian electronic ignition and coil set up (clever Coxy) - not an EJ.
Still ain't turbo in mine

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:57 am

RSR 555 wrote:hahahahaha.. yeah.. just go EJ Jonno

that word 'just' has got a lot of people in trouble coz an EJ just won't go in on its own. Having trouble wearing my EA stock

Still gotta try my spider on the EA82M as well, get more curious monkeys off my back