Potential R160 Vacuum Locker - Just one hurdle...

Post by **yarney** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:14 pm

daza wrote:Has anyone tried "shimming" a VLSD?
I fail to understand how an external shim can "preload" a sealed viscus assembly, but it'd be worth the minimal cost if it did.
Link.
Daza.

DM and i are looking into it Did you get the link of him.

Jan

Jeff · Post by **Jeff** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:17 pm

I am running a 4.44 rear clutch pack LSD , front Cusco clutch pack LSD and a center diff lock and it is great on the road [ except for some torque steer ] and great offroad. I did have problems when i first did it with the front LSD grabbing when it shouldn't but it has now been fixed. I think this is petty good setup for a Subaru and the terrain they cover.

AndrewT · Post by **AndrewT** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:37 pm

Jeff wrote:I am running a 4.44 rear clutch pack LSD , front Cusco clutch pack LSD and a center diff lock and it is great on the road [ except for some torque steer ] and great offroad. I did have problems when i first did it with the front LSD grabbing when it shouldn't but it has now been fixed. I think this is petty good setup for a Subaru and the terrain they cover.

How much would it cost to set this up in an L series starting with a standard 5spd dual range and open rear diff?

daza · Post by **daza** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:15 pm

yarney wrote:DM and i are looking into it Did you get the link of him.

Jan

No,
Happened across that a while back.
Daza.

Subaman · Post by **Subaman** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:43 pm

Personally I would simply copy what Brumbyrunner has done to his box and be done with it. If you get stuck with a box like that then you need driving lessons more than you do locking bits.

.....If only we had his budget, anyway I thought the post was about rear diffs, not gearboxes.

Post by **yarney** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:07 pm

Jeff wrote:I am running a 4.44 rear clutch pack LSD , front Cusco clutch pack LSD and a center diff lock and it is great on the road [ except for some torque steer ] and great offroad. I did have problems when i first did it with the front LSD grabbing when it shouldn't but it has now been fixed. I think this is petty good setup for a Subaru and the terrain they cover.

Hi Jeff have you taken your car off road (rough rutted steep hills and lifting wheels) if so how did it go with that setup.

Jan

Outback bloke · Post by **Outback bloke** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:12 pm

The budget for the slip limiting bits isn't that great.

Jeff · Post by **Jeff** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:34 pm

Yes Jan i have and so far so good but Grant is right this tread is about diffs,

vincentvega · Post by **vincentvega** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:08 pm

Outback bloke wrote:For someone that thinks they are very knowledgeable you know jack shit when I read statements like that.

corrected for truth.

discopotato03 · Post by **discopotato03** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:05 pm

No offense to AndrewT but if the wheels on that wagon in the pic above were fitted to an other than stud pattern wise bog std L Series would the tops of the tyres rise as high in the arches as those on a factory std L ?

Again I could be wrong but it looks to me like a section of the bodywork has been removed at the lower front of the arch to make the wheel clear the bodywork .

How much compression travel does such a car have ?

So as not to be OT what would the budget be to buy , even second hand , three exotic diffs and have them fitted .

Wilbur · Post by **Wilbur** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:32 pm

Bring back Bear69

YouTube · Post by **El_Freddo** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:54 pm

Whoa there fellas! There's some serious blood pumping in here... It wasn't my intention to fire everyone up - seems we're all pretty passionate about our different setups!

To clear the deck - one of the reasons why I want a locker is a) to completely lock the rear axle off road and b) to have a completely open rear diff for everyday driving and that trip to the snow once or twice a year. I've said it before - after having the welded rear diff I'd like to go the manual locker to have a choice without having to get out of the subi to make it happen...

All I really wanted to know from here was if there was any interest in the creation of a rear manual locker and look at other options that other members have in the absence of the locker. It seems that there's an overwhelming no vibe going on...

Good read though

I'm brewing other ideas now - you'll hear about them if they work

Cheers

Bennie

AlpineRaven · Post by **AlpineRaven** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:11 pm

interesting read above... mmmm
Cheers
AP

AndrewT · Post by **AndrewT** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:44 am

discopotato03 wrote:No offense to AndrewT but if the wheels on that wagon in the pic above were fitted to an other than stud pattern wise bog std L Series would the tops of the tyres rise as high in the arches as those on a factory std L ?

Again I could be wrong but it looks to me like a section of the bodywork has been removed at the lower front of the arch to make the wheel clear the bodywork .

How much compression travel does such a car have ?
.

Not sure how this even relates to a thread about vacuum locking rear diffs....but anyway.

No offence taken (not sure why I would??). Having not fitted my wheels to a stock L series I have no idea how high they might rise to the arches.
Alex had the same size tyres on his 3" lifted L series and they didn't hit the top of the guards, I think his offset allowed for them to go inside though.
Yes my guards have been trimmed (fairly slightly) as the wheels did catch the front part of the guard when going over bumps while turning. They might not have if my offset was correct. My offset is massively wider than stock (by a good few inches), I'm running a Liberty crossmember and control arms - Liberty's are a wider car.

Not sure how much compression travel it has, probably the exact same as an Outback with KYBs and std height Kings springs because that's what I'm running for front suspension. I know the wheels won't come up as high as the tops of the guards but that's not even related to my choice of body lift etc, the body lift is mostly to allow me to fit a transfer case.

ElFreddo, sorry for the completely random off-topic post!

Phizinza · Post by **Phizinza** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:17 am

Subaman wrote:A viscous LSD in the rear practically runs as an open diff when cold, when a wheel leaves the ground nearly all the power is transferred to that wheel, this difference in rotation speeds creates friction iside the VLSD which causes the viscous fluid to get hot,expand and thicken up and then it starts transfering power to the other wheel which is hopefully on the ground.

The way I see it is, if you spin a wheel at all offroad you are putting more stress then needed on the car. With lockers, you can crawl over most things without spinning wheels and potentially blowing CV's or bearings. If you want to hammer your car at 4000rpm over everything to build up heat so you can drive over rocks, sure have fun spending $$$ on spares. I'll stick with lockers and go nice and easy and enjoy a glass of gin+tonic while I do it...

Outback bloke · Post by **Outback bloke** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:08 pm

I fail to see where there was mention of 4000rpm in Subamans post. It was simply a quick run down on how the vlsd system works.

With lockers you can crawl over things, sure, crawling is not always the best way to approach things when 4wding. Wheels will spin no matter how many locked bits you have at times.

Why is every one trying to bag every one else instead of talking about the locking diff mechanism? This is directed at no one in particular but if you want to extol your 4wding prowess on any one then start another thread. You can tell every one how good you are and how thick they are in that.

Subaman · Post by **Subaman** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:54 pm

I talk from experience when saying you will actually tend to blow more cv`s and snap half shafts with a locked diff than without.

Hence the reason locked diffs arent recommended in some vehicles as the drive trains arent strong enough to cope.

Venom · Post by **Venom** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:20 pm

Bennie i'm certainly interested in a lockable rear diff.

Interesting discussions occuring here which i actually appreciate. I am very interested to hear the pro's and con's of the subaru alternatives in the absence of lockable diffs. It's also prompted me to do some research on the issue, and i see that both front and rear after market LSDs aren't necessarily that pricey, hard to get and even install. Okay maybe pricey in the context of a $2000 L series, but in the context of off-roading accessaries i would consider it very cheap.

AlpineRaven · Post by **AlpineRaven** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:07 pm

I can add this as my experience with LSDs, I had weld diff a while back, hated it as it was useless on the road, couldnt be bothered taking CVs out because i wanted 4 wheel spin... so I got myself VLSD, the first VLSD in my other Liberty was sussed that it was worn out... after a while i missed out VLSD as I had open in my wagon, now I have VLSD again and i noticed it was different to the first one i had, VLSD is okayish, it needs to be warmed up to get it to work, I tested it out on mud and it does lock up/tighten up - I'm happy with it anyway, I dont go loose/rocky/gravel roads and sand.. so its okay for what I have...
Cheers
AP

discopotato03 · Post by **discopotato03** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:04 am

I started another long post yesterday and didn't sent it .

Long/short IMO locking diffs can make life difficult for the drive train/suspension/bodyshell at times so again IMO unless you have a dedicated rock hopper I think caution is needed .
What limited slip diffs do obviously is to limit but not totally eliminate slip , they also eliminate wind up in the driveline and forces into the unibody that the designers never intended to be there .

Personally I think unless you have a lot of power and use it the RX type R160 LSD is easiest . If you make sure it has a full set of good plates and adequate static pre load is should work well enough and be livable on the street .
Center diff well thats going to depend on what box you have and what options are available . I know Gareth tried the competition spec VLSD in his Brumby's EJ box but didn't like it on road . Competition componentry often is a pain when used on the street - wrong app . Maybe the std WRX vs the std Liberty one would be a livable compromise .
Front diff is more involved because you have to remove the box and split it to get at it .
Like I've said in the past lowish preload plate LSD's is what the Rally mobs found best for reasonable traction whilst avoiding chronic understeer .
If front LSDs load up suddenly they want to rip the wheel out of you fingers and more than one person ended up with sprained/broken fingers/wrists when the spokes slammed into them . Torsens are supposed to be a good compromise in a FrWD/AWD application .

So much for long/short .

Let the debate continue , cheers A .