R160 Locker project

YouTube · Post by **El_Freddo** » Wed May 11, 2011 4:05 pm

taza wrote:^ It doesnt but is simple enough to do. Any way that will get the mechanism to lock will work whether it be air, magnetic, electronic.

That's exactly it, we just need to devise a new centre that locks, has strength, is smooth in operation and thus works well. The mechanism used to activate the locker can be anything that moves a lever...

Dann wrote:I'm behind this, would be awsome when/if this goes though

It would be the first! And yes, I would be totally stoked with a manual locker in Ruby Scoo. After that I'll be looking into the front diff

discopotato03 wrote:Nissan R series diffs were never intended to be fitted to serious off road vehicles and because of this they don't have provision or space for a mechanical lock . By a lock I mean some sort of dog clutch to lock a side gear to the carrier to defeat the differential action .
Since there is nothing like this in production and cheaply available second hand anything will have to be newly developed which is expensive .

Yes this is true and I'm sure we've all thought about this and decided to ignore it for now. But thanks for bringing it up again.

If the R series diffs weren't designed for a serious offroader, why is there a factory locker option on the new navara's that have an R180 based live axle??

discopotato03 wrote:So if truly serious you have two options .
1) Find an alternative IRS differential with the right ratio and locking mechanism and graft it in .
2) Go talk to people who specialise in aftermarket gearbox and differential bits and see if they can make one off locking carrier sections .

1) This won't be an easy mod for later model subi's. The whole idea of the R160 locker is to be able to bolt it straight into the factory position where mr fuji put it. Not only will this make it an easy modification once its in production, it will also open up every subaru that sports the r160 diff to the option of this unit.

2) Many of us have and while they specialise in these things, we've only had negative responses, hence the "independant I know little about diff lockers" thread on here about getting one in the making. I've been told that it just can't be done by a couple of companies, one that looked promising wanted 500 orders at a grand each. I dunno about others, but that is definitely poo change to me...

TJM might have one in 5 years once their program of mainstream lockers are on the go. That's the closest I've come so far from the 500 order reply.

I for one am really hoping that this can get off the ground and into production - I would love to be more involved, but living in what could be considered a remote part of Australia without a shed and parts to play in/with I'll have to sit on the sidelines of this one for now.

Bring on the R160 manual locker. Can't wait!

Cheers

Bennie

taza · Post by **taza** » Wed May 11, 2011 4:38 pm

Once I get my hands on a diff. I will have something to work with. I know there is limited space avaliable in the R160 but then something small can be created. The reason for this is that I dont want to pay $2000+ for front and rear LSD's and no one else is willing to try at a locker. I dont want to go and upgrade my diffs either and I dont even know if its possible to upgrade my front due to it being part of the gearbox.

Taza

YouTube · Post by **El_Freddo** » Wed May 11, 2011 9:18 pm

taza wrote: I dont want to go and upgrade my diffs either and I dont even know if its possible to upgrade my front due to it being part of the gearbox.

Yes it can be upgraded. I think D_generate would be the one to talk to about this - he's got an LSD (torsen I think) in the front of his WRX offroader.

Its not about limited space. What needs to be done is a new carrier needs to be made up - this is the part that the crown wheel and spider gears are assembled on/in. This is where we need to make some sort of locking mechanism that locks the spider gears (that "power" the axle stubs) to the carrier, thus locking the diff.

It is in this carrier that we will have the locking mechanism, not the standard carrier - unless you manage to work out how to do it without interfering with the pinion shaft...

Cheers

Bennie

taza · Post by **taza** » Wed May 11, 2011 9:33 pm

I was told space was an issue..... designing a new carrier wont be too hard its just going to take time. But I havent physically looked inside one so when I get the two in Perth I can then work out measurements and start a design.

I could almost pull a sick day tomorrow at work and just drive down there, grab them and drive back. I could even do it now and be back in time for work tomorrow at 8am. haha

YouTube · Post by **El_Freddo** » Wed May 11, 2011 10:01 pm

taza wrote:I was told space was an issue..... designing a new carrier wont be too hard its just going to take time.

Space is always going to be an issue as you want the unit as strong as possible but also to fit as tightly as possible in the given space without interfering with any other components...

Cheers

Bennie

d_generate · Post by **d_generate** » Thu May 12, 2011 3:50 am

Mine's Helical & about $420 delivered to your door, it would be nice if one of you genius's could work out a way of changing the wax in the viscous LSD center & rears to make them much stiffer, apparently the wax is the only difference in the center diffs standard 4kg compared to the tougher 12kg & 20kg diffs used in rally cars.

http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=obx+su ... m270.l1313

They make some nice stuff for Subi's.
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=obx+su ... m270.l1313

H-top · Post by **H-top** » Thu May 12, 2011 10:45 am

D_gen; you are the only person I have heard of using the the OBX helical.
On a Subaru.
I have heard bad stories of them in honda's.

But at that price I'm taking a punt when I rebuild me spare
Gearbox. So so cheap!

I would really like to see this locker get made. I don't have much use for
it right now but maybe one day! Very keen to see!

Cheers

78sti · Post by **78sti** » Thu May 12, 2011 11:04 am

I think the easiest way would be to get one of the old detroit lockers made for subaru r160 and copy. Somebody on this forum was doing exactly that on this forum but I dont think they ever finished.

It would like to try to put a lockrite r180 front navara locker into a sti or early datsun housing and see if it will work. This could be made up as a simple kit where you would source a sti diff (pretty common now). The diff will just bolt in and you would need custom cv shaft sticks to adapt the sti inner cv jount to whatever outer cv joint you are using. If you were doing this in a forester or impreza you could probably do a sti hub conversion and use all subaru parts.

I am not sure if this will work and don't have the time or money to find out:(
You may also need to use navara inner cv's to make it work.

taza · Post by **taza** » Thu May 12, 2011 12:08 pm

I dont think a Detroit/Auto locker would work in a full time AWD vehicle like the Forester or Outback. I think it would try and lock while driving onroad which could case huge issues, damage and wouldnt be very safe. Could work in the rear of an L-Series or Brumby.

As said above by 78sti this would mean you have to upgrade your diffs or cv's.

78sti · Post by **78sti** » Thu May 12, 2011 1:01 pm

A auto locker will never fully lock both wheels together. They only allow the wheels to speed up (faster than driven speed) rather than slow down like in an open diff.

They will work fine in an awd car, the only downside would be the clicking noise the gears make when going around a corner and the slight backlash felt on and off power.

daza · Post by **daza** » Thu May 12, 2011 1:11 pm

There are a lot of different types of traction aid out there, but the Detroit type Auto Locker is actually an Auto Un-Locker.
They are locked by default and unlock when cornering forces speed up the outer wheel.
I have been told that these are not suitable for AWD transmissions but i can not see any reason why?
Daza.

YouTube · Post by **El_Freddo** » Thu May 12, 2011 1:39 pm

daza wrote:I have been told that these are not suitable for AWD transmissions but i can not see any reason why?

Yeah daza, that's an interesting question. Phiz's bro up here has a lockrite locker in his AWD cruiser. It goes ok, can do some funny things around tight corners at speed when you get back on the throttle. Generally though it seems to go alright and works very well offroad.

That said, I want to avoid the extra stress the auto unlocker puts on the rear as it unlocks all the time.

The personal thing about a manual locker for me is that I can choose when I want to use it and thus minimise stress on the subaru's rear end including CV's and diff mounts.

I realise there will be others who have no interest in a manual locker that will make it sound so easy to get another device in there that would be basically the same, this is not what I'm aiming for otherwise I would probably have one of these devices already.

Cheers

Bennie

78sti · Post by **78sti** » Thu May 12, 2011 2:27 pm

The old subiextreme forester gt had a detroit in the rear.

There biggest problems were breaking the rear drive shafts and burning out the centre diff clutch on the auto. This is why if I ever do it I would like to use an r180 with bigger shafts.

YouTube · Post by **El_Freddo** » Thu May 12, 2011 5:47 pm

78sti wrote:This is why if I ever do it I would like to use an r180 with bigger shafts.

How would this help the centre diff? It will beef up the rear end but the centre diff will still cop it if this was the issue with the subaextreme foz...

Cheers

Bennie

taza · Post by **taza** » Thu May 12, 2011 7:41 pm

El_Freddo wrote:The personal thing about a manual locker for me is that I can choose when I want to use it and thus minimise stress on the subaru's rear end including CV's and diff mounts.

Thats my exact reason for not wanting a auto locker/unlocker.

Plus I dont plan to go real hardcore with my Forester, I really just want a traction aid to help in those tight situations I sometimes get myself into. If I wanted to be a hardcore offroader I would get a Pratrol or Jeep Wrangler.

A subie of any sorts is a better road car than any real 4WD but their biggest floor is open/sh*t lsd's at stock. A rear locker would make climbing a rocking hill on a angle an easy job rather than needing a run up and damaging the vehicle.

Like here with Bennie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRRUkwOZGUg

Taza

L-nutter · Post by **L-nutter** » Thu May 12, 2011 8:37 pm

Hi Guys,

I don't post much, but thought i'd share my experience. I have a detroit locker in the rear diff of my L series. I don't know much about the locker physically, but it has it's good's and bad points..

Good Points
1. Keeps you going up hills as you keep traction when one wheel pops up, don't need to keep the rev's up as much!

Bad points
1. It your going hard up the hill, pop a wheel and when it comes back down and 'grabs' the dirt it can break the output spline from the diff to the CV.I guess that's why your looking at a stronger one. Standard L engine too.
2. If your going up a steep slippery wet hill, you then get more traction to the ground than an open diff so you get less (or no rear) wheel spin which in turn means you can't keep the Revs up and you loose engine power. (Again probably not on a Forester - L dies in the ass!!).
3. As it's a detroit, and effectively 'unlocks' if you do a sharp turn on a hard surface.You can hear it unlocking..click, click, click as you turn. You can also feel the 'binding up' as you turn and takes a little more power to make it.
4. I actually found on a steep slippery downhill, when going over woah-boys (spelling?), the car has a tendency to slide sideways while one rear wheel is in the air and straighten once both wheels back on the ground...A bit scarry if you have a drop over the side - just takes a different driving style.

1 good point and 4 bad....Would I pull it out......NO WAY......IT's just sooo much fun.

I hope it all comes together for you!

Cheers, Dougie

FROG · Post by **FROG** » Thu May 12, 2011 9:18 pm

I have sudden diff envy

All the best with this guys

L-nutter wrote:Hi Guys,

I don't post much, but thought i'd share my experience. I have a detroit locker in the rear diff of my L series. I don't know much about the locker physically, but it has it's good's and bad points..

Good Points
1. Keeps you going up hills as you keep traction when one wheel pops up, don't need to keep the rev's up as much!

Bad points
1. It your going hard up the hill, pop a wheel and when it comes back down and 'grabs' the dirt it can break the output spline from the diff to the CV.I guess that's why your looking at a stronger one. Standard L engine too.
2. If your going up a steep slippery wet hill, you then get more traction to the ground than an open diff so you get less (or no rear) wheel spin which in turn means you can't keep the Revs up and you loose engine power. (Again probably not on a Forester - L dies in the ass!!).
3. As it's a detroit, and effectively 'unlocks' if you do a sharp turn on a hard surface.You can hear it unlocking..click, click, click as you turn. You can also feel the 'binding up' as you turn and takes a little more power to make it.
4. I actually found on a steep slippery downhill, when going over woah-boys (spelling?), the car has a tendency to slide sideways while one rear wheel is in the air and straighten once both wheels back on the ground...A bit scarry if you have a drop over the side - just takes a different driving style.

1 good point and 4 bad....Would I pull it out......NO WAY......IT's just sooo much fun.

I hope it all comes together for you!

Cheers, Dougie

taza · Post by **taza** » Thu May 12, 2011 9:18 pm

^ Thanks for that Dougie. Im guessing your have upgraded your rear diff to get a detroit locker in there? R180 maybe?

guyph_01 · Post by **guyph_01** » Thu May 12, 2011 9:36 pm

Yeah, plz enlighten us on how you got your detroit locker in your L series?

Venom · Post by **Venom** » Thu May 12, 2011 10:13 pm

There are detroit lockers around, Subaruby has one too. Factory or rally origins i think, but i'm not sure if anyone actually knows where they came from.