R160 Locker project

78sti · Post by **78sti** » Thu May 12, 2011 10:20 pm

LDS made a run of detroit lockers probably about 15 years ago now. They took to long to sell and as a result have never made them again:(

They bolt into a standard early r160 open diff with the stub axels

D3V1L · Post by **D3V1L** » Thu May 12, 2011 10:20 pm

auto lockers in awd cars caus bind up, which is a big pita

basically binds up the wheels as if your driving with the centre diff locked all the time.

ive had one in my cruiser, and we had to put a part time kit in it, and same with the patrol.

producing an auto locker isnt hard, if u know the right people

davo

d_generate · Post by **d_generate** » Fri May 13, 2011 4:23 am

H-top wrote:D_gen; you are the only person I have heard of using the the OBX helical.
On a Subaru.
I have heard bad stories of them in honda's.

But at that price I'm taking a punt when I rebuild me spare
Gearbox. So so cheap!

I would really like to see this locker get made. I don't have much use for
it right now but maybe one day! Very keen to see!

Cheers

We were surprised at the quality, everything measures up exactly to the standard specs, it's as quiet as the standard diff and virtually no torque steer, the only bad thing I could find on the net for the Subi one as far as problems go was the bolts supplied but they were pretty old reports and the ones supplied looked excellent, Seagull fitted it & he's a mechanical fitter by trade, he couldn't fault it in any way.

L-nutter · Post by **L-nutter** » Sat May 14, 2011 7:48 am

All I remember about fitting the diff locker (was about 10 years ago now), was that we used the standard L 3.9 diff and removed the 'guts' of it and fitted the detroit part in it's place.... I still have the bits we removed in a box somewhere!
Dougie

discopotato03 · Post by **discopotato03** » Sat May 14, 2011 5:15 pm

Detroit locker centers have their origins in mining industry heavy vehicles . They are a crude agricultural and functional solution but not something most people would stand for in a road registered car . Search my early posts on this site about Detroit lockers , I had one in the back of a twin cam turbocharged Bluebird (Nissan H190 live rear axle diff) and while they stop wheelspin there is absolutely NOTHING progressive about them - at all . Unlike a Viscous/clutch/torsen diff center a Detroit is locked on either or both sides period and gives NO DIFFERENTIAL action at all . They are not a differential at all because they cannot drive both sides while differentiating each sides rotational speed at the same time . People get confused with wheel speeds and differentials because they only think about the differences in wheel speeds not how the wheel speeds differ from the diff center speed . Its not so much a case of one wheel turns faster than the other more the fact that one turns slower and the other faster than the diff center housing itself . Where the detroit comes in is that one wheel has to turn at the same speed as the center housing and the other is either unlocked or locked giving the locked or spool effect . Now because a detroit center cant have one axle/wheel turning faster than the center and the other slower they cant do what a real differential can . It gets ugly when you use the things in AWD drive trains because to be smooth and even you need three actual differentials or it won't work properly . Front and rear differentials , real differentials , differentiate wheel speeds from side to side and the center diff allows differentiation between the front and rear diffs . When you replace any of the three with a device that doesn't differentiate speeds either side of the centre housing then it all screws up and tries to wind up . It does it because the pinion speeds are wrong compared to the wheel speeds and center differentials cannot cope with that . The other disconcerting thing with detroit lockers is they have a bad habit of only having one side locked when you drive away from rest . You really feel it in a RWD car because all the drive goes to one rear wheel which depending on suspension design can make the car crab a bit . Eventually the dog clutch in the other side lines up and when it engages it makes a crashing sound not unlike a gun shot and you get a pretty savage thump down the drive line as well . I strongly suggest you drive something with a Detroit locker in it before investing lots of money into obtaining one because most people end up hating the things in normal use . I couldn't wait to remove mine and fit a proper clutch LSD in my car . I get to drive AWD Hinos occasionally and they have Detroits in the bum . PITA because they want to crab all over the place and doing tight full lock take offs is a real jerky affair because the Detroit fights the center diff . Your calls , cheers A .

taza · Post by **taza** » Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:27 pm

When I was in Perth I picked up one of the diffs. Going to start getting measurments from it and drawing it up on the computer. Once I have completed that I can use those parts on the computer to automate the actions of a standard open diff. Then design the locking mechanism and simulate it on the computer before handing the designs over to Carl (Carljwnc at offroadsubarus.com) to see if he can physically make the locking mechanism.

Taza

Gannon · Post by **Gannon** » Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:45 pm

I think i may have mentioned this before, but wouldn't it be easier to have clutch type LSD made up to fit the R160 housing. You could give them a factory LSD and have it copied, but make it with more plates to increase the clamping force. This way it would be street-able but still able to move the car with one wheel off the ground

taza · Post by **taza** » Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:52 pm

Yes that could be easier but its harder to get my hands on an LSD and since I hvae a R160 3.9 ratio open diff sitting at my back door, the skills and software im going to try and design a locker. One that you could manually lock for offroad but leave it open onroad would be the ideal setup. Im going to make a start and just see what happens.

vincentvega · Post by **vincentvega** » Sat Jun 11, 2011 6:03 pm

good on you mate. You will have plenty of customers if you can get it to work. Keep us posted

YouTube · Post by **El_Freddo** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:58 am

vincentvega wrote:good on you mate. You will have plenty of customers if you can get it to work. Keep us posted

Too right!

After the rear - maybe the front diff could get some locker attention

Cheers

Bennie

2coupedup · Post by **2coupedup** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:47 am

pretty sure i have a detroit in my MY COUPE, good for gunning it on the tar and grips well in dirt, but it sucks for every day driving, noisey and rough (clunk clunk clunk) when turning on dry roads... i would trade it for a manual locker anyday
would only be worth having a detroit if your driving was mostly dirt roads...

i dream of a light weight LSD............. but with a lock option LOL

but i'll settle for an open diff with a mechanical lock if i have to...

cheers

Barry1956 · Post by **Barry1956** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:16 pm

I'd be in for one of these - assuming the gearing is compatible with the 2095-08 Manual Outback.

D3V1L · Post by **D3V1L** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:26 pm

well i picked up my front and rear air lockers off the shelf yesterday

so easy hahahaha

interrested to see how this goes, caus i was thinking about taking an eaton E locker and trying to retro fit to another diff they r not made for, as these are a whole lot different to the normal vacum or air actuated lockers.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

davo

YouTube · Post by **El_Freddo** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:43 pm

Barry1956 wrote:I'd be in for one of these - assuming the gearing is compatible with the 2095-08 Manual Outback.

Yeah you should be able to swap the locker centre for your open centre to retain your current gearing

Hopefully that is how it will turn out...

D3V1L wrote:well i picked up my front and rear air lockers off the shelf yesterday so easy hahahaha

And I bet its not for a subi!! I've heard good things about the TJM air locker units not leaking air over time - if you can get them for your model of vehicle...

Cheers

Bennie

AndrewT · Post by **AndrewT** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:44 pm

If these work well and can be duplicated for sale cheaply enough, I'll be needing two

D3V1L · Post by **D3V1L** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:06 pm

El_Freddo wrote:Yeah you should be able to swap the locker centre for your open centre to retain your current gearing Hopefully that is how it will turn out...

And I bet its not for a subi!! I've heard good things about the TJM air locker units not leaking air over time - if you can get them for your model of vehicle...

Cheers

Bennie

lol benny even better when u work for tjm and get them even cheaper

but sadly, no not for subaru

davo

YouTube · Post by **El_Freddo** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:48 pm

D3V1L wrote:even better when u work for tjm

So what are you doing?? Get in their ear about it! Even better, take an r160 rear diff into work, drop it on the bench and tell the boys you need an air locker for one of these (as you pat the diff)

If you pull that off and get an r160 TJM air locker from it I will drive across this country of ours and shake your hand. I'll probably do one of those reverse laugh things where you almost choke first though

Cheers

Bennie

D3V1L · Post by **D3V1L** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:35 pm

lol benny

davo

ScubyRoo · Post by **ScubyRoo** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:11 am

Any progress Taza? Good on you for taking a project like this on mate! If it doesn't work out, oh well. But if it does, you will have made something that will benefit a lot of people.

Kudos for giving it a go mate!

taza · Post by **taza** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:47 am

Yes I have made some progress. I was busy this weekend working on my own car but so far I have designed the ring gear and spider gears on my computer. Now I have the exact sizes I am about to start designing a new carrier, very similar to the old one just with the locking mechanism a part of it. Im trying to make it as simple as possible so it will be a cable machanism much like the 4WD/AWD leavers in most Subaru's.

Taza