EA81 SPFI basics

Get the most out of your Engine / Gearbox with these handy hints ...
User avatar
Tweety
General Member
Posts: 1253
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:45 am
Location: ea81 powered trike Victoria

EA81 SPFI basics

Post by Tweety » Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:18 pm

Ok, project ea81 supercharged is all but over. With better gaskets and belt alignment and dyno it is all done and am so delighted in the outcome of the SC12 added that I wouldnt go back. And thats with 5psi. likely eventually I'll get to 8-9psi. The dizzy has been recalibrated and the Delorto 40dhla is working well.

But a few questions. I've surfed the net but am not satisfied with the information out there.

Firstly the economy if Tweety has suffered. Down from 27-30 mpg to 20mpg. With the extra power and torque I can live with this. But hook up my van and it likely will drop more. Makes for an expensive holiday especially around Oz next year. But I suppose we will save on accomodation. My query now is:

What are measures I can take to get better economy?

Firstly even though with the big original air leak in the set up where we had eventually 225 main jets, then second dyno 180 main jets....there was still a very small leak. That has now been fully rectified but it could mean that the jets are still too large- compensating for that air leak. so yet another dyno will be required one day in the future.

I adopted Joels method on his VW beetle in doing a draw thru set up. This meant the SC clutch pulley couldnt be utilised. If I went blow thru I'd also go SPFI from a camira. I've used search but again info is minimal. The SPFI uses a single throttle body. Could I for example place a single fuel injection nozzle in the manifold between the SC and intake (where the BOV is mounted) pointing directly down the 75mm connecting tube. But I wouldnt have room for a butterfly. With this set up could the throttle body be pre SC? eg what if the carbie was retained in its current position and no fuel going thru it- just utilise the butterfly unit. or does the butterfly need to be right near the injector? Not having ever seen a SPFI set up I am asking broad questions.

How hard would it be to install the Camira fuel system? The ECU wiring? of course the concept is to return to a clutch pulley on the supercharger so the engine isnt turning the SC hence more economy.

I'll be itnerested in your ideas. Till then I am just going to love the new Tweety and buy less chocolates at the servo to help the fuel bill :D
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Tweety trike- EA81 (full reco 2014) 32/36 weber, SPFI manifold, 9.5:1 CR, VW auto.

User avatar
TOONGA
Elder Member
Posts: 5339
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 10:15 am
Location: Mandurah where they divided by zero
Contact:

Post by TOONGA » Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:04 pm

there was a site which had the how to but my link is now a 404 I have found the same info as a pdf here http://www.leoneturbo.com/docs/EA81_SPI_guide.pdf

good reading :)

TOONGA
Image
PJ Gone but not forgotten
JETCAR AKA the sandwedge Rusted in pieces

User avatar
steptoe
Master Member
Posts: 11582
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:00 am
Location: 14 miles outside Gotham City

Post by steptoe » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:00 pm

The turbo Cordia may be a good eg of forced induction and spfi , from mamory they had primary and secondary squirters and were after the turbo had done its bit pushing air down through a folded tin duct. Huh! mpfi and alloy on the EA82T :)

User avatar
Tweety
General Member
Posts: 1253
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:45 am
Location: ea81 powered trike Victoria

Post by Tweety » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:45 pm

Thankyou Toonga. typical of you- supplying more than I'd ever asked for.

I got one thrid through that PDF file and knew it was well beyond me in patience, understanding of it all and overall benefits for my application.

Sensors, warning lights, fuel returns etc. a big job. Made bigger because my trike isnt a Brumby/Brat. Different dash etc.

It all comes down to how much I'll use the trike.

Our trip around oz is on our computer. Total 14,000 kms. inland NSW/Qld and around the coast to SA and direct home.

Towing our van we used to get 13L/100kms non SC. Now presuming we get 17L/100kms we will burn about 500 litres extra fuel. Current prices range from $1.30 to $2.10. worse case is about $1000 extra. Having spoken to debbie tonight we agreed it isnt worth the worry.

We'd most unlikely ever do the trip again.

So thankyou anyway but we'll leave it as a draw thru set up and work on making it more economical if we can.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Tweety trike- EA81 (full reco 2014) 32/36 weber, SPFI manifold, 9.5:1 CR, VW auto.

User avatar
TOONGA
Elder Member
Posts: 5339
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 10:15 am
Location: Mandurah where they divided by zero
Contact:

Post by TOONGA » Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:04 pm

a water injection system could bring up your fuel economy

http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Simple ... ngwell.pdf

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_lib ... h/me3.html

have a read and see what you think, I will be putting a water injection system (simple) on my set up to stop ping and see if it does increase fuel eficiency.

TOONGA
Image
PJ Gone but not forgotten
JETCAR AKA the sandwedge Rusted in pieces

User avatar
Silverbullet
Senior Member
Posts: 2920
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:20 pm
Location: Adelaide

Post by Silverbullet » Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:53 pm

Coming to SA? :o how close to Adelaide? ;) it'd be nice to see this thing ticking over...
Will it ever end!?
-EA81 TWIN CARB!!!!
-L series 5 speed
-Custom paint job
-2" lift
-Full custom re-wire
-L series front end
Image

User avatar
Tweety
General Member
Posts: 1253
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:45 am
Location: ea81 powered trike Victoria

Post by Tweety » Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:01 am

Silverbullet- I have plans to look up Toonga south of Perth (or Marble Bar!!!) when over there and Adelaide is a possibility. so before we head off will get your contact details. mind you I'll have a daily or weekly post going on our trip with pics.

gotta keep myself occupied while Debbie drops those grapes into my mouth on some beach.

now back to Toonga's links.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Tweety trike- EA81 (full reco 2014) 32/36 weber, SPFI manifold, 9.5:1 CR, VW auto.

User avatar
Tweety
General Member
Posts: 1253
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:45 am
Location: ea81 powered trike Victoria

Post by Tweety » Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:42 am

ok, still reading at 2:30am. I'm keen.

Seems most water injection units now are for FI ECU systems with pumps and sensors. I want a cheap unit similar to a flash lube system.

What I can endorse is there has to be a good filter so the very tiny hole where the water enters the carbie butterfly area doesnt clog. after the jets have been reduced in size at dyno time with the water injection in place a sudden stop of water injection will make the engine run lean and boom!!

Easiest way is to get a fine tubular shaped plastic fuel filter with fine mesh cartridges. I have on installed as a petrol filter on Tweety. But it cant have a alloy body as it will corrode so brass is the answer if I can find one.

I used t have a flashlube unit. there was an adjustable dripper at the base in the line that you adjusted for flow. like the dripper in your arm at the hospital after you've had your piles cut out. I'll need one of them, brass of course.

And a large bottle with a low level switch.

I've read that methanol and rotor coating dont mix. pure water from our home purifier would be the go and bottled water if desperate but I have a fair bit of room for a suitable bottle - heavy pastic or brass. more think music needed.

So any ideas on the above. maybe buying a flashlube unit for $60 is worth it for the parts???
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Tweety trike- EA81 (full reco 2014) 32/36 weber, SPFI manifold, 9.5:1 CR, VW auto.

User avatar
steptoe
Master Member
Posts: 11582
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:00 am
Location: 14 miles outside Gotham City

Post by steptoe » Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:45 am

the more you spend on water injection - the more you eat into the fuel budget.

Did you see the autospeed water injection DIY using inverter for 70 dollar capuccino pump etc ??

User avatar
coxy
Junior Member
Posts: 149
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 2:55 pm
Location: Sydney/NSW

Post by coxy » Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:43 am

Years ago I used to fit a simple water injection system marketed by Frank Kleinig it consisted of a 2 litre OJ container and used a small brass tube below the carb butterfly tuning the ammount of water used was by moving a number of plastic tubes to allow bleeding air into the system through some holes in the brass pipe and lowering the vacuum pull on the water.
Put a small amount of metho in the water to control algae blooms and Bob's your Uncle.
Results varied depending on Vehicle but the best was a One Tonner driven by Sir Peter Ables personal TNT Courier he averaged an improvement on his 253 One Tonner of eight miles per gallon after optimising ignition timing to take advantage of the water injection and it keeps carbon buildup at bay inside the engine as well,Worth the effort and can be made up at home quickly.

Brass tube suitable can be found at most model stores australia wide under the K&S product range also available from some engineers suppliers.

Simply drill an interference fit hole for the tube make sure it doesn'y hit the butterfly and goes in about 3mm into the airflow,You can cut if at an angle so the angled hole is away from the air flowing in to promote better vacuum signal strength.

I would think an EA81 would benefit greatly as did the Holden and it would also be a good thing for reliability for EA82'a as well especially the Turbo variant.

User avatar
Tweety
General Member
Posts: 1253
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:45 am
Location: ea81 powered trike Victoria

Post by Tweety » Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:53 pm

This site is a good one on that set up Steptoe

http://autospeed.com/cms/title_AutoSpee ... ticle.html

I'm a little concerned with fail safe system in that there isnt one. How do you know it is not clogged and running lean? Certainly would work I reckon. Also there is a point at which too much water will cause a lot of damage. How do you regulate it to know how much you can inject per minute/hour.

Flashlube had a glass tube only 40mm long from memory where you counted the drips per minute for an application say 2 litre engine 4 drips per minute.

And there is one other thought we can brainstorm. If any water injection is used at the throttle body of a draw thru like tweety's then the vapour along with fuel/air mix will travel thru the sC lobes then along to the cylinders. Will the sC lobes assist in atomising the water and if so would one need a pump/inverter/cooling fan for the pump and all that at all? If atomising takes place with the water then a flashlube type system eg Toonga's link at http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Simple ... ngwell.pdf might suffice????? In comparison between the systems the latter is cheap as chips, the former one more complciated and more moving parts and mpre to go wrong.

The Aquapro filter http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-HIGH-FLO ... 0585165156 is a top idea in line to the mesh fuel filter. Start off with a 0.020" hole on the butterfly rim point.

What do you think guys? The big question is- will the carbie and supercharger atomise the water fine enough to avoid a pump needed?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Tweety trike- EA81 (full reco 2014) 32/36 weber, SPFI manifold, 9.5:1 CR, VW auto.

User avatar
steptoe
Master Member
Posts: 11582
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:00 am
Location: 14 miles outside Gotham City

Post by steptoe » Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:21 pm

I can't see the old school stuff working under boost, blow it backwards ! The idea of autospeeds, and it was all started with RS Lib in mind I think, is the pressure pump drives the fogger jet to atomise the 'water' and the fogger jet is just that - a chook shed fogger jet, about $40 with base and jet from Australian importer. Think the details are in a project box somewhere, different size jets and a suitable filter ensures no blockages. I was just a bit worried about the 240V in me glovebox :)

Guess you could try jets placement about the traps, they even suggest pre airfilter!

User avatar
Brumby Kid
General Member
Posts: 1297
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:19 pm
Location: Belair S.A.

Post by Brumby Kid » Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:21 pm

And I thought that the SC was complicated.
Yes defanitaly drop into Adelaide.

Cam
When life gives you a corner, drop a gear, pitch, and stomp the loud pedal
Bianca: 1991 Subaru Brumby
My First / Project car

EA81 Rebuilt by Tony Knight from knight Engines
2" body lift
25" 185r14 Yokahama Delivery Star, light truck tyres
2" Sports exhaust
Rear Aguip step/bar
Liberty seats
"Bianca"
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Dads Car: 02 Impreza WRX STi
Mums Car 08 Liberty Wagon

User avatar
Tweety
General Member
Posts: 1253
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:45 am
Location: ea81 powered trike Victoria

Post by Tweety » Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:31 pm

Not complicated Cam...if it was I wouldnt have one. very simple really but my workmanship on manifolds and gaskets was a learning curve for sure.

Yes steptoe will look more into it. Sounds good. no poitn experimenting- best to get that water atomised.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Tweety trike- EA81 (full reco 2014) 32/36 weber, SPFI manifold, 9.5:1 CR, VW auto.

User avatar
steptoe
Master Member
Posts: 11582
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:00 am
Location: 14 miles outside Gotham City

Post by steptoe » Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:39 pm

Funny, I was once led to believe turbos and correct fuelling was difficult - working with a master did that - kept me in my place, kept the curiosity alive for many years - then I discovered gas and on-road emission analyser :)

User avatar
Tweety
General Member
Posts: 1253
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:45 am
Location: ea81 powered trike Victoria

Post by Tweety » Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:14 pm

I read both part 1 and 2 of the autospeed DIY water injection article steptoe. did a price web search on bits and its under $250.

pump $104
inverter $49
Filter $50 with brass barbs
Nozzle $50 approx.

Having two butterflies I think it would be advantageous to place two smaller nozzles at the beginning of the carb in the trumpets. As the water used is proportional to the throttle the system is ideal.

I still dont know how much water would be used. The tests they started on the Honda Insight were inconclusive in part 2. I have room for a water container above the transaxle area. (I was hoping to keep this area for 2 scuba LPG tanks lol). But how amny litres will be enough ....fill the water tank and top up the petrol???
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Tweety trike- EA81 (full reco 2014) 32/36 weber, SPFI manifold, 9.5:1 CR, VW auto.

User avatar
Brumby Kid
General Member
Posts: 1297
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:19 pm
Location: Belair S.A.

Post by Brumby Kid » Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:20 pm

Sorry, what is the idea of using water?
Seems like the last thing you want to be doing.

Cam
When life gives you a corner, drop a gear, pitch, and stomp the loud pedal
Bianca: 1991 Subaru Brumby
My First / Project car

EA81 Rebuilt by Tony Knight from knight Engines
2" body lift
25" 185r14 Yokahama Delivery Star, light truck tyres
2" Sports exhaust
Rear Aguip step/bar
Liberty seats
"Bianca"
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Dads Car: 02 Impreza WRX STi
Mums Car 08 Liberty Wagon

User avatar
Tweety
General Member
Posts: 1253
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:45 am
Location: ea81 powered trike Victoria

Post by Tweety » Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:13 pm

Cam, water injection is used to suppress detonation more common in boosted engines. it also can help seal the Sc lobes producing more boost without going different pulley sizes. It effectively steam cleans the combustion chamber. It helps with economy. It cools the SC.

Google it.

Manufacturers include AEC, Snow, Aquamist.

The difficulty is that most systems are made for ECU's EFi etc. whereas I'd want a more primitive set up. Thats why Steptoe suggested Aquaspeed dIT system.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Tweety trike- EA81 (full reco 2014) 32/36 weber, SPFI manifold, 9.5:1 CR, VW auto.

User avatar
steptoe
Master Member
Posts: 11582
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:00 am
Location: 14 miles outside Gotham City

Post by steptoe » Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:51 am

When you get to drive you may notice on cool damp misty days or nights your beast runs ...smoother , cooler damper air - natures intercooler - READ here : http://autospeed.com/cms/title_The-H2O- ... ticle.html

You found part 2 ??. Think it was yet to vbe written two years ago !! Ah, found it!! >>>

http://autospeed.com/cms/title_AutoSpee ... ticle.html

I need to spend more time at autospeed - give it same time I used to his Zoom magazine - s'wonder Julian not a ausube member !!

If you read the foot note at the end, they have a $66 XX $65 !! supplier http://www.espressoworkshop.com/shop/shop133.html for the pump and that's where I got mine :) Xmas before last, oh was the one before that !!

Got invoice quote here for Spraying Systems Co. spray.com.au

TN30 unijet tip brass 3.1 l per hour @ 20 bar $22.15+two weeks wait
TN60 unijet tip brass 6.1 l per hour @ 20 bar $22.15+two weeks wait
5053-200-SS strainer 200 mesh....................$5.15 + in stock
CPB1322=CP1325 unijet cap and body............$7.70 + in stock
freight $20

all exclude gst 27.08.2010 esp if you get 'em from the US - Mark !!

aha, that;s what scared me off - 240V in the glovebox and 240V right at the pump where high pressure water is to be - Gannon !!

User avatar
steptoe
Master Member
Posts: 11582
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:00 am
Location: 14 miles outside Gotham City

Post by steptoe » Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:23 am

Tweety wrote: I'm a little concerned with fail safe system in that there isnt one. How do you know it is not clogged and running lean?
Hook it up to squirt your windscreen as well :D

two problems solved in one

Post Reply

Return to “Engine, Gearbox and Diff”