Cooling fans staying on.

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Phizinza
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Cooling fans staying on.

Post by Phizinza » Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:58 pm

I've swapped out to an EJ, I've kept the factory radiator, I have two fans mounted on the front of the AC condenser. I'm using the factory radiator thermo switch to operate both fans. When the gauge gets to about 3mm down from the middle line the fans kick in (the thermo sensor in the coolant crossover is at 90 degrees when this happens), and even at idle they stay on. I am not sure if my gauge is correct (note I am running an EA thermo sensor for the gauge). I have measured the temp on the output side of the radiator at 57 degrees, the input side is around 86 degrees. The coolant crossover at the thermo sensor stays at about 90.

Do you think I may have a blockage/airlock? The radiator is clear and worked perfectly with the EA, I have run an EJ on EA radiator with no issues in the past. Or do you think the gauge isn't reading right and the fans aren't cooling effectively enough? Or something else? Just looking for some suggestions. Thank you.
Owned - 89 Brumby, 83 Wagon, 83 Leone 4WD Sedan, 83 Touring Wagon, 99 Outback
Own - 87 Brumby, 93 Liberty, 09 Forester
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Post by Proton mouse » Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:50 am

Phiz,
my experience says no prob at all running the EA Rad with an EJ. Mines an EJ22 bored to 2.5 and has no cooling issues at all, but I am not running fans on outside of Rad on the condenser. I know they lose their efficiency big time that way, but also know the space issue for fans on the engine side (I modded EJ engine mounts to shift engine back to fit fans on engine side)

What wiring setup have you got with regard to what initiates fan activation? Should be ECU that turns them on via a sensor on the block and then also fans on, when A/C is switched on (cycled on and off with the thermostat on the Evaporator) What is actually turning your fans on? You say at idle they are on but is that on cold start or only after warmed up? Even then if the thermo sensor is switching them on it should cycle them on/off (if it is functioning correctly and not stuck in 'closed circuit')
I wouldn't have my fans switched on by those EA thermo switches, they are hopelessly prone to failure. (I've had several fail and have read of many dodgy ones too)

I did have big problems initially with air locks. Even with heater on and taking off the highest sitting hose to purge it while car was on an incline, I couldn't get more than 3.5 litres into it. After disconnecting one of the hoses at the heater tap and generally mucking around filling at odd angles through several hoses, I finally got over 5 litres into it (5.5 I think!)
Cheers, John

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Post by Phizinza » Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:06 am

I don't have an ECU. My conversion is a little bit different...

I'm triggering a relay off the stock wiring using the radiator thermoswitch. Before I installed the relay I just used the stock wiring and it had the same issue. The temp doesn't get hotter than 100c in the coolant crossover at idle but it just isn't seem to come down enough to let the fans cycle like they usually do.

I have a feeling there is a flow issue as the radiator is cooling the water that is making its way back into the engine quite well enough, it's just not cooling the engine enough. I have already had the water pump off and can confirm it's in good working order. I've filled the system with the heater tap on and using a 400mm riser on the top hose to push water through the thermostat into the radiator. I've burped the system, ran it with the radiator cap side of the car up on a 300mm wall. Maybe I'll try and find a clear hose I can install on the top hose to see the flow rate..?

I put fans on the front of my last EJ swap, two Mazda 626 aircon fans, and they worked fine. Admittedly that was without the AC condenser though. This time round I've used a larger 323 AC fan (about 11 to 12 inch) and an ebay 8 inch fan, I've used foam seal between the condenser and radiator to ensure the high pressure air doesn't escape between the two. The temp of the fins on the radiator where the fans blow through proves the fans are working well.

Can anyone tell me what temp their thermostat housing is on their EA81 when the fans kick in? I think I may need another instrument cluster to check if my gauge is showing correct or not.
Owned - 89 Brumby, 83 Wagon, 83 Leone 4WD Sedan, 83 Touring Wagon, 99 Outback
Own - 87 Brumby, 93 Liberty, 09 Forester
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Post by El_Freddo » Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:21 am

Phiz it's a tricky one as we don't know your full setup. I know you're not running the ecu due to a carb retro fit.

If the coolant crossover pipe remains at 90deg for whatever reason, your thermo fans will never turn off. The cutout on those thermo switches is 87 deg from memory.

I would say you've still got an airlock in the system somewhere. My ej22 sits smack on 82deg in moving traffic in this weather.

One other thing to think about is have you got the carb tuned too lean so the engine is always running that bit hotter or is there an issue in the wiring that triggers and cuts the thermo fans? I'd be looking at a dodgy relay or the thermo switch as John mentioned.

It could also be weird thing where the thermo fans are cooling too efficiently by the time the coolant gets to the thermostat, thus not allowing the thermostat to open much which in turn doesn't cycle coolant around quickly enough for it to get it back to the radiator at a temp below the cutout temp of the thermo switch.
Or it could be an indicator that there's and issue with the heater circuit which is used to monitor the opening of the thermostat to a certain degree.

I hope that makes sense!

Cheers

Bennie
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Post by Proton mouse » Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:37 am

If the fans never shut off (with or without a relay) it has to be the thermo switch locked in the 'on' position.
Or if it IS cycling then it might be faulty and just coming on at a lower temp? Got another to try?
Or it may be fine and the coolant is hotter than you think? (assuming fans aren't on, on a cold start?) Are you measuring it with an infra red temp gun?
If the coolant is hotter than normal it gets back to the possibility of an air lock. Is your heater heating the cab fairly quickly after start? Or getting hot at all? If not then air lock it is. That's where I had mine as I had no heat in the cab with heater on full. Make sure the heater tap is functioning too.
You could try taking the heater out of play altogether by bypassing it at the 2 pipes running to the heater tap. Don't block them completely as the HAVE to have flow! Just a loop of hose will suffice to test the system then.
Good luck
John

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Post by Phizinza » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:22 pm

Thanks for the suggestions.

I tested the switch in a pot of water on the stove awhile back and it appeared to be working perfectly fine. Switched on at around 90 degrees and off at 83 ish IIRC.

The heater in the car works well, as normal as I can remember it. Ignore my wiring changes as I had been testing it on the factory Brumby wiring that it used to use with the EA81 and it worked fine then.

At idle the carb is tuned pretty well, I'm not an expert but the idle is great now and the mixture screw is right on the sweet spot which indicates it's not lean.


I'll have to do some more experimenting to weed out different parts of the system. Anyone know where I can find some time?
Owned - 89 Brumby, 83 Wagon, 83 Leone 4WD Sedan, 83 Touring Wagon, 99 Outback
Own - 87 Brumby, 93 Liberty, 09 Forester
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Post by Phizinza » Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:18 pm

I did some more driving tests and left the car to get hot without the fans plugged in. Although it is running on only water at this stage the gauge was only half way between the running temp line and the over heat line (which the EA81 used to overheat at) before it started pushing steam out the radiator cap (radiator at 124 degrees). This tells me the gauge is reading wrong. When the temp gauge was at the running temp line (which it used to sit on with the EA81 when the fans would kick in) the radiator is at 102 degrees. I'm inclined to get another temp sender and thermoswitch just to see if it rectifies the issues.

I also put some 95 oct Shell in it and found 2.5 turns out on the mixture screw plus 13 degrees BTDC on the timing worked best but still a bit of pinging right down low on the revs when powering hard. Currently the tune is giving good power, most definitely much more than my old EJ22 Brumby had.
Owned - 89 Brumby, 83 Wagon, 83 Leone 4WD Sedan, 83 Touring Wagon, 99 Outback
Own - 87 Brumby, 93 Liberty, 09 Forester
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Post by Phizinza » Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:29 pm

Not sure if this would have an effect but here is my findings on the thermostats and thermo switch.

EJ thermostat
Dayco 77c
OEM 78c

EA81 thermostat
Tridon 82c
Wahler 82c

EA81 thermo switch
Tridon On 90c, off 85c


I'm a bit puzzled how the EJ manages having the thermostat on the input side of the engine, surely if the cooled water from the radiator is flowing into the thermostat it would close it and arrest the flow.
Owned - 89 Brumby, 83 Wagon, 83 Leone 4WD Sedan, 83 Touring Wagon, 99 Outback
Own - 87 Brumby, 93 Liberty, 09 Forester
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Post by pezimm » Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:20 pm

My money is on a dodgy relay.... But I'd imagine you tested this already??
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Post by El_Freddo » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:19 pm

Phizinza wrote: I'm a bit puzzled how the EJ manages having the thermostat on the input side of the engine, surely if the cooled water from the radiator is flowing into the thermostat it would close it and arrest the flow.
Yes and no. The heater circuit provides heat when the rad is cold. Once everything is warmed up the coolant coming in isn't so cold as it enters the engine. It makes for a very efficient warm up for lower emissions. The trick is to mount the thermostat literally upside down so the heat sensing bit is on the engine side as you'd know.

Is your thermostat working properly or the radiator in good condition? Most importantly is it earthed for the temp sensor to do its work?

Have you tried running with the fans on all the time? The thermostat should manage the engine temp in the traditional way. If not there's something else that's at play here.

When were the HGs done on this EJ25?

Cheers

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Post by Phizinza » Mon May 01, 2017 5:53 pm

Relay has been checked.

Thermostat has been kettle checked with IR thermometer. Also it's installed correct way up.

Radiator is in good clean working order. Plenty of flow through it and no cold spots. It's also only a couple of years old.

Radiator is well grounded.

Fans run all the time, temp stays very steady.

Found out my gauge is buggered somehow, it's reading low (no, I am using the EA81 sender and it along with the gauge came straight off the working EA81). Tried another cluster and the gauge on that read just above the middle line which makes sense as to why the fans are staying one. Looks like it's not managing to get cool enough for the fans to cut off but it won't rise above where it's currently running. That's why I was thinking maybe theres a problem with the difference in thermostat temps causing the water to keep flowing into the radiator which is causing the thermoswitch to stay on where usually the thermostat would stop the water and allow the fans to cycle?

No idea on the head gaskets. No water in oil, compression gasses in water or white smoke. No signs of HG failure at all.

I'm going to replace the thermostat and thermoswitch when I pull the engine and gearbox out. See if it changes anything. I'm just looking for an 82c thermostat.
Owned - 89 Brumby, 83 Wagon, 83 Leone 4WD Sedan, 83 Touring Wagon, 99 Outback
Own - 87 Brumby, 93 Liberty, 09 Forester
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Post by Phizinza » Mon May 01, 2017 6:04 pm

Looking at the thermo switches online it looks like the thermo switch in my radiator isn't the standard Subaru one. It appears to be made for a Mitsubishi (TFS139, it has flat blade connector not the round one) and therefor it would be 85 on 80 off instead of 90 on 85 off like the Subaru one. This could also be an issue even though it wasn't in the EA81. I'll get a proper EA81 thermo switch (TFS195).
Owned - 89 Brumby, 83 Wagon, 83 Leone 4WD Sedan, 83 Touring Wagon, 99 Outback
Own - 87 Brumby, 93 Liberty, 09 Forester
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Post by Silverbullet » Mon May 01, 2017 7:16 pm

This may seem random, might not even be related but have you got anything connected up to the heater core + tap? or just looping the hoses to bypass the heater?
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Post by El_Freddo » Tue May 02, 2017 9:03 pm

If the new thermo switch doesn't work I'd be trying out a lower temp thermostat to see if that works.

The are benefits with ECU controlled fan switching!

Cheers

Bennie
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Post by Phizinza » Thu May 04, 2017 7:03 pm

Once I get it setup right it will work fine bennie, just like the EA81 thermo circuits work fine. I'm just puzzled as to why it's not working with the EJ when it's pretty much the exact same setup as the EA using the same rad and thermoswtich plus circuit wiring (ignore my extra relay as that is not what is causing it). Yes putting a carb on an EJ25 is a hair brained idea but once it's working whoever gets in my car and experiences the difference in throttle control will understand why I am going to this effort.

I have the heater plumbed in to the EA81 heater tap Sam, I even ensured it was plumbed in the correct way, ins and outs the original EA81 way.

I've got a new thermostat (matching the EA81 thermostat temp) and original thermoswitch on order at the parts store. Once I get the engine and box back in (after I take them out) I will see if that rectifies the fans. Other than that I guess I just don't have enough fan power through the radiator to keep the engine temp down. Might have to try no thermostat if the new gear doesn't work, just to see if it's thermostat related. If it stays cool and the fans cycle with no thermostat then it must be the thermostat. Testing testing and more testing. One day I will drive this car... one day.
Owned - 89 Brumby, 83 Wagon, 83 Leone 4WD Sedan, 83 Touring Wagon, 99 Outback
Own - 87 Brumby, 93 Liberty, 09 Forester
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Post by Silverbullet » Thu May 04, 2017 7:06 pm

Phizinza wrote:Testing testing and more testing. One day I will drive this car... one day.

Ah the joys of customizing a cars systems ;)
Will it ever end!?
-EA81 TWIN CARB!!!!
-L series 5 speed
-Custom paint job
-2" lift
-Full custom re-wire
-L series front end
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Post by El_Freddo » Thu May 04, 2017 7:15 pm

I don't doubt that it'll work as it should, don't get me wrong there!

Teething issues. Good thing it's not your daily yet!

Cheers

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Post by TOONGA » Mon May 08, 2017 8:06 am

did you resize the inlet and outlet pipes to 38mm on your radiator? is the thermostat you are using the 190 degree subaru genuine for the EJ motor? do you run the heater always or turn it off?

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Post by Phizinza » Wed May 10, 2017 8:03 am

Bottom hose is resized. My last conversion wasn't and no issues. The factory thermostat is 78c which is a 172. Have tested with greater tap on and off. Engine is out of the car now, will test when it's back in.
Owned - 89 Brumby, 83 Wagon, 83 Leone 4WD Sedan, 83 Touring Wagon, 99 Outback
Own - 87 Brumby, 93 Liberty, 09 Forester
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Post by TOONGA » Wed May 10, 2017 9:40 pm

I used a outback 190 degree for my EJ in my brumby as the EJ 180 factory thermostat wouldn't let the engine get warm enough. which meant my EJ22 was always running rich and near cold. Once I got the 190 in it ran perfect. I always had the heater running as well as that's how they are plumbed in the EJs. I didn't bother with the thermo fan switch either I had a 6 inch fan that always ran and a 10 in switched fan for 4WD work
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