Better aftermarket computer - RX Turbo L .

[Gannon]

I am happy for any one to point out a factory standard car, let alone a modified one that has lots of power and uses less than 10/100.

There arent many, i'll admit that.

10L/100Km was a bad example, i just meant that big hp on a propperly tuned engine shouldnt mean you cant get good economy too. There is no way it is possible if you tune your aftermarket ECU on a dyno in a couple of hours. It takes a lot of time to get it right. That is where live tuning by a wideband comes in handy, you can tune as you drive.

There are guys on rsliberty.org that have well in excess of 300hp and still get good economy on their daily commute.

And you are right, this shouldnt be an argument, just a thread about a guy who is taking an EA82T in uncharted territory

[twilightprotege]

the problem with large injectors - which is why people go to staged injector systems - is that no matter how good your ems is, there is always a minimum opening for that injector and potentially that minimum opening is too much fuel for what's required and thus hence run rich. afterall, the injectors fire by being given a ground source - they always have power going to them - and in the world of microtech, the amount of time you can change the injector opening is changed in 0.06mS intervals - and at times, again with large injectors, that's the difference between lean and rich.

and it's funny how people change to aftermarket ems's just to get more power, but for my astina i got more power and better fuel economy (and a fair bit better too). as i said before, it's all in the tune - tune the vacuum settings for economy, tune the WOT, or 0"Hg solely towards power. in between, you have the (in the world if microtech) pump settings - these settings watch the throttle position and when the throttle position changes rapidly, it adds in extra fuel (and timing if required) because the MAP sensor takes a short time to read the changes. it's kind of like a pre-emptive adjustment and it works pretty well after a lot of tuning.

but suparoo is right - tuning shops focus on WOT, afterall that's where you want the engine to be safe as it's under the most forces. i've spent years onroad tuning my astina to get the tune as good as it is now - drives like stock. fuel economy is all to do with the tune, and how you drive (most importantly lol)

[discopotato03]

This link tells about a mob in the US who modifies Bosch EV14 injectors and I'd like people to take note of the photos of the Bosch injectors and the valve section about 2/3 of the way down their Q and A page .

It seems injectors have come a long way since the 1970's ...

http://www.injectordynamics.com/questionsanswered.html

http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/pdf/comp ... /EV_14.pdf

This one is a bit more extreme , 2000cc squirters , but rubs in in beautifully .

http://www.injectordynamics.com/ID2000.html

Some here would identify with owners and tuners at NASIOC .

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthr ... ?t=1769876

A .

[discopotato03]

A picky of a Cosworth YBD (Siera RS500) 8 injector plenum section , nothing real special but it is 80's thinking - as were its injectors .

http://www.rscosworthbreakers.co.uk/bre ... %20005.jpg

Audi did it as well with their Quatro Sport back in the 80's , only they had the injectors side by side in the inlet runners .
5 cylinder engine so 10 of them . I couldn't quickly find a pic but if you've seen the Group B Rally era vid "Too Fast to Race" you'll know what the look like .

A .

[steptoe]

Mini Cooper S (2005) and VW FLOG GTi (2008) both in factory trim have more poke than I can handle and my aunty regularly gets/got 7.5 litres per 100km.

[discopotato03]

I now have the computer/some sensors/flying lead loom - and the four Bosch GM LS1 coils which are made in Japan according to the boxes .

Because I have a few sets kicking around I picked the old contact sockets out of ex Commodore AMP injector plugs .
You need five for an EA82 , four for the injectors and one for the water temperature sensor . The supplied water temp sensor looks similar to the OE one .

I have to chase up a Bosch rotary idle air control valve and the three pin one off Hyundai's is the usual choice . New they are quite expensive but 2nd hand cheap enough . They use a three pin connector similar to rectangular injector connectors , I aim to use the later versions of these plugs that you remove without tools . MUCH better than the original ones and that hateful wire clip retainer .

This evening I was looking at an old Nissan FJ20 throttlebody and I would not mind betting that it would bolt up to a std spider plenum chamber . I must dig out the old inside calipers and measure its throttle plate diameter , to the eye its same or fractionally larger . Possibilities .

A four plug L TB and TPS will bolt straight up to my flange modified spider plenum and having a potentiometer means the Vipec can talk to it .

CAS will be no prob and will probably use the factory plugs to make it easy to exchange if mine lemons out at any stage .

As it turns out these computers will hold two sets of maps and may even switch over without a laptop .
I think they also have 4 meg of memory on board so can data log also without the lap top connected . Should be as easy as setting up the wide band oxygen sensor and controller (exchange the bung for the probe in the dump pipe and run the cable under the back of the bonnet and in through the drivers side window, connect power via the aux power connector I had fitted) . Link to the Vipec and go for a spin . Download logs to laptop and view whenever .

In time , cheers A .

[discopotato03]

I managed to rat up a pair of second hand Excell Bosch rotary ISC or idle speed control valves the other day . They would do the trick and I had hoped to fit one where the cold start bypass valve plumbs in on a Spider EA82 manifold . The trouble is these things are bulky and theres not really anywhere convenient to mount it neatly .

One smart cookie suggested fitting an EJ throttlebody to keep it in the Sube family because they have a compact IAC integrated into the throttlebody . He said that there were stepper and rotary valve versions available and to use the rotary two wire type .

I thought about this for a sec and it would mean using a throttlebody that rotates in the opposite direction to an L EA82 , actually same as Spiders std throttlebody .
Of course my Spiders plenum was flange modified to take the asymetrical L EA82's throttlebody , the std Spider plenum has a symetrical four bolt pattern and I'm reasonably sure Nissan and Subaru EJ uses the same one .
Luckily we have a couple of spare Spiders and can use a std plenum section to try to mount the correct idle valve one .
If it works I imagine the EJ's throttle plate is larger than an EA82 MPFI and it can donate a more modern TPS as well .

Always some curly one to solve isn't there .

A .

PS Also have to sort mounting systems for the four LS1 coils and it will most likely be off the airbox on the turbo side and some kind of bracket on the nearside in the area where the std coil lives . The coil socket is not a std one so we have to make or get custom HT leads as well , the coils at least come with the correct crimp fitting and boot to go on the leads .

Also it occured to me today that the gauge wires for water temp and oil pressure run inside the std engine loom so I need to rat one up off an early carby L or make our own .

[El_Freddo]

Just to annoy you for a moment (a small bone to pick):

I guess with the use of an EJ throttle body would remove the "true L series" essence now wouldn't it???

I must say that turbos and aftermarket engine management systems are not a path I've been down and sometimes I have trouble understanding what's being discussed or don't have the energy to read it all in one chunk

Keep up the essays!

Cheers

Bennie

[discopotato03]

Go on , have a rib , I'm not short of those LOL .

Well the honest answer is that while these Spider inlet manifolds were never an L Series addition they certainly were in EA82 territory .
Actually a grey area as Vortexs apparently were assembled on the L line in Japan . Fucarno set .

Even deeper , Nissan and Subaru had some kind of financial tie up at that stage and used many same or similar components - same suppliers .

I'm actually looking at a Nissan FJ20 throttlebody ATM because it has the same mounting pattern as the Spider throttlebody and I'm reasonably sure the EJ ones do too .
The advantage with the Nissan ones is that they are laid out like an MPFI L throttle body - rotate in same direction and have the throttle quadrant and TPS on the same sides - unlike the Spider and EJ ones which are opposite in both ways . The Nissan FJ's throttle plate is 54mm where the MPFI L was I think 50 . It will be interesting to look at an RB30 one from a VL Commode or R31 Skyline as they have a potentiometer and two sets of contacts in their TPS's .

Cheers A .

[coxy]

Problem number 1 in all this theory you are using a throttle body that rotates opposite to the original one on the manifold that may well cause issues related to the actual manifold design regarding consistant airflow characteristics.
Second issue here is all this talk about better injectors and a more responsive system,does the engine actually need it,nobody has mentioned one of the most important aspects of engine tuning for any engine and that is just how effective is combustion.I guarantee even a carefully modified EA 82 combustion chamber will not burn efficiently because of the design,this aspect alone will render any fancy EMS system or components thereoff as a potentially expensive option for no real world benefit.
Ignition timing options are well and good and can mask some problems,but there is more to ignition than just timing and spark output,put that into perspective and consider how much effective combustion will affect fueling requirements as well.
When I was involved with a Cosworth BDG Escort rally car it ran a maximum of 30 degrees advance because it was efficient in combustion and made 280 HP normally aspirated,the Keith Black Hemi used in the bosses Blown Alchohol Hydroplane made 2000 HP and with the addition of twin plugs and a second magneto this increased to 2500 HP the Hemi with high dome 14.5 CR pistons has a long cresent shaped chamber and does not combust efficiently requiring 55 degrees of ignition advance.
Though one was a 1990 cc engine and the other 526 Cu In running 40 PSI blower pressure they both spun to just over 11,000 RPM.
Point being regardless of how expensive or sophisticated a system is fitted to an EA 82 the basic shortcomings of the mechanical design will prevent any worthwhile gains over a good more basic setup.
Regarding ECU microprossor abilities these will usually only compensate for lazy programers as the actual software code has more to do with how the system operates speed and response wise, than any of the modern hardware used.The main reason for using a higher bit rate CPU is its ability to address more memory,if the software for a management system becomes that bloated as to require this it will then be to slow for the job at hand.
To illustrate the point an old 486 running Dos will boot to a usable interface if somewhat limited for functions and eye candy far quicker than a much faster cpu running Windows or Linux.
Faster processors tend to be accompanied by more code so the end result isn't any quicker unless the software is written in machine code or assembly language and aftermarket EMS does not fit in that catagory of programing as they tend to use high level interpreted languages such as C+ or maybe C#.

[discopotato03]

Well Steve the honest truth is that neither of us has tried in the past to develop either an EA81 or 82 and as you've said in the past the one SB had was a loaner and in theory Grp A spec so heavier than a std car .

As per the engine control systems being a bit more sophisticated that the factory one well so is your average i Pod .

There is some method in the madness and I have been looking behind the scenes at what will eventually replace the L Series and what this computer and , still up in the air , injectors will fit - hint 4G63 or EJ20/5 .
There are a few good cheap components getting about like the injectors in R34 GTt's (later update of my Skyline) and they are not the nice Bosch EV14's they are a later design (EV6) than my EV1's and cheap because the R34 people are breaking their necks to use huge squirters .

Any way time will tell .

See you tomorrow or Saturday , cheers A .

[steptoe]

here I am viewing a five year old post and can see a guest is also looking at same time - bit freaky