EDIS on EA81

RatCamper · Post by **RatCamper** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:34 am

I'm curious if anyone put EDIS on an EA81? If so, what did you do about the distributor gear? How did you mount the CAS wheel? Any other pitfalls?

Post by **TOONGA** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:35 am

EDIS = Electronic Distributorless Ignition System.

or

EDIS = Usually a surname origins are from the Greek Ages.
The Edis' have largely died out, however a few small families remail in Western Europe and in the Greek Islands.
The Edis' were renouned Spiritualists and deep-thinkers and it is this combination that made them highly respected members of society.
The female members of the Edis' are known to be fiercely independant and staunch believers in what is right and just.
The male members of the Edis' are known to be hard workers and great providers of their family.

I'm hoping it is the first one

GOOGLE is a funny beast

Ive never seen it done and sorry have no idea of how you would go about it. most people put in a breakerless / electronic ignition set the timing and forget they ever had points.

TOONGA

RatCamper · Post by **RatCamper** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:14 am

most def. the first one

I've got a pretty good idea about how it all works, it's just I was curious about the specifics if anyone else has done it.

Sure I could (and may possibly instead) put one of the electronic distributors on, but they still have a rotor and electrodes, and don't have the nifty ability to be connected to a computer to change the ignition mapping, or have the ability to be switched between a couple of maps so for example dual fuel can be done without power loss on LPG (or if you have the resources a supercharger with clutch).

I want EDIS for a few reasons: I hate distributors. Always have. They have left me stranded more than any other part on a vehicle. i want configurability. The distributor is in the way making me need to think about how to mount my backwards Holley prog backwards. I like doing things like this. if it works out I really want to do it to the Fairlane because its ignition system is evil, and I'd like it to automatically change advance for when it runs on LPG, so i don't need to be looking at 20L/100km of petrol when I'm towing the box trailer or caravan. Towing with not enough advance on LPG is unpleasant at best. Could probably do some roast spuds while it's at it.

Currently it's theoretical. I've got my eye on some of the key components currently (pre loved of course) and depending on price I'll pull the trigger. Well on price and whether it is possible to run an EA81 without the distributor without bad things happening that is.

Yes this is for the VW (unless I find out what the deal is with the subie gathering dust in a yard is in town), and no it doesn't have LPG. but if that is feasible it'd be nice. I like having 1000+km range on the daily driver. I've used that and then some in a day more than once. It takes the pressure off trying to plan a route with fuel stations every few hours.

78sti · Post by **78sti** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:26 am

It is possible but you will need a cylinder pulse pick up and this would normally be mounted to a disc in the old distributer or maby you can use the ign module as a pick up?

But the cost in setting this up including an ecu to drive it would make it not worth the trouble IMO. Money would be better spent on a ej22 as it already has this.

Also I have seen distributors modified so they advance when running lpg.

RatCamper · Post by **RatCamper** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:42 am

78sti wrote:It is possible but you will need a cylinder pulse pick up and this would normally be mounted to a disc in the old distributer or maby you can use the ign module as a pick up?

But the cost in setting this up including an ecu to drive it would make it not worth the trouble IMO. Money would be better spent on a ej22 as it already has this.

Also I have seen distributors modified so they advance when running lpg.

The EDIS systems usually use a Ford style crank mounted wheel. I think they have 36 teeth -1 for the positional location. So it's pretty much a case of grafting a ford style pickup wheel to the crank pulley of the EA81, and making a bracket to hold the pickup near the wheel.

I could have gotten an Ej22, or a Golf motor or a couple of other things roughly the same price but like everyone else in NSW I'm bound by VSI 6, rev. 2.1, section 2. The section relating to motor modifications and replacements. An EJ22 would take me above the 15% capacity (interpreted by RTA modifications mob as engine power) allowed as an owner modification. That would require me to get an engineering certificate. besides being bloody expensive, the nearest engineer is hundreds of km away which would also incur trailer rental, fuel and accommodation costs. and if it wasn't approved 1st time around it'd be that all over again. I don't have that kind of budget.
I live on the VIC border but I can say that the current Victorian guidelines require an engineers certificate if you do pretty much anything at all. Not only that teh certificates are more expensive in VIC and the nearest engineer is still a few hundred km away. So The EA81 is a motor of convenience.

78sti · Post by **78sti** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:51 am

what about an ej20 or even ej18 much better motors than a ea81

RatCamper · Post by **RatCamper** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:02 pm

78sti wrote:what about an ej20 or even ej18 much better motors than a ea81

Better is subjective. Anyway the 2.0 FI which is the largest motor offered when my camper was made had 70HP. So ((70 / 100) * 15) = 10.5, which means max HP I can have is 70+10.5 = 80.5HP. The EA81 weighs in at 74HP stock bringing it in within guidelines. It's not my fault if a future motor to replace this one happens to have internal modifications.

Edit: also how would an EJ feel about going 4000RPM+ for a long time. EA81 is happy to do it.

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:20 pm

something that comes to my small mind is the 4 plug ECUs on L Series that used a distributor with CAS inside. Others have grafted a normal EA82 dizzy to EA81 dizzy drive cog and run them, so why not a CAS EA82 dizzy to drive your ECU of choice.

Or go totally opposite and go points dizzy convert to twin points but use one set at a time with one having more advance than the other

78sti · Post by **78sti** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:39 pm

also how would an EJ feel about going 4000RPM+ for a long time

my ute will do 9000rpm no problems as with most ej motors the turbo only starts to come on boost at 4000. Any ej would happily sit on 5000rpm all day.

interpreted by RTA modifications mob as engine power

Are you sure about that, every other part of that code refers to capacity as millilitres (cc) or ucbic inches. I have never heard of power stated as capacity.

RatCamper · Post by **RatCamper** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:32 pm

78sti wrote:my ute will do 9000rpm no problems as with most ej motors the turbo only starts to come on boost at 4000. Any ej would happily sit on 5000rpm all day.

Are you sure about that, every other part of that code refers to capacity as millilitres (cc) or ucbic inches. I have never heard of power stated as capacity.

Damn. I think my R&P would explode if I did those revs in top (seriously! She's geared like a tractor).

RTA confirmed twice, as did a couple of certified inspectors. who knows maybe I just got unlucky. I think I'd be tearing my hair out splicing EFI and the original emissions gear from an EJ powered subie into a '75 VW. Yes all emissions gear from the vehicle the original motor came from has to be present on the recipient even if it is older.
To be honest it'll probably end up with the Weber on it after blue slip. No-one looks twice at a VW running webers / kadrons etc and I can probably get the weber to do a better job than a worn out Hitachi. Er sorry Holley licensed Weber. lets just call it a Weber, eh?

78sti · Post by **78sti** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:13 pm

I think that you could challenge them on that. Ask them to show you a defination on capacity that refers to power?

Probably better to ask the question a different way. Ask if i can fit this 2.2l engine instead of the origional 2.0 with no mention of power outputs and if they ask tell them that you dont know the exact power of the engines. (make them do the research)

I think that you will find that they dont have those numbers for every car ever made so there is no way for them to regulate it.

emissions gear on a ej is not much more than a brumby and cutting down a wiring harness is not that hard considering that you are thinking of putting edis on a ea81. Have a look at some of the ej conversion threads on here as you will need to do the same things as far as efi and wiring goes.

Gannon · Post by **Gannon** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:22 pm

According to the Vehicle Standards Bulletin 14, you may increase the power of your engine by 20% National Codes of Practice for Light Vehicle Construction and Modifications

I always thought it was 20% capacity?

So if your original engine was 70HP, and you increase that by 20%, you can have up to 84HP.

Even the EJ15 had 94HP so according to this rule, you cant even use one of those.

But in saying that, most of the users here have gone an EJ22 (135HP) from the previous EA82 (84HP)

Thats a massive 60% increase in power from a 22% increase in displacement.

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:16 pm

In NSW some improvemnets can also be up to the certifying engineer signatory almost over ruling the rules/ guidelines. I asked, as to turbo anything once had to have rear discs fitted, now RTA tech enquiries says it is up to the engineer. No worries, got me rear discs now

RatCamper · Post by **RatCamper** » Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:33 am

Suparoo wrote:According to the Vehicle Standards Bulletin 14, you may increase the power of your engine by 20% National Codes of Practice for Light Vehicle Construction and Modifications

I always thought it was 20% capacity?

So if your original engine was 70HP, and you increase that by 20%, you can have up to 84HP.

Even the EJ15 had 94HP so according to this rule, you cant even use one of those.

But in saying that, most of the users here have gone an EJ22 (135HP) from the previous EA82 (84HP)

Thats a massive 60% increase in power from a 22% increase in displacement.

Augh! They changed stuff last month. Reading that I found a few sticking points but nothing too terrifying.

There was one sentence which vaguely mumbled about 4x4s and commercial vans playing by different rules for mods, so if I can find the differences I may have an ace up my sleeve. My camper was a factory panel van and the records reflect that.

Anyway this is amazingly off topic right now.

Steptoe's words on distributors were interesting and made me realise something which I need to research. How the hell do CAS based EDIS systems work? I mean the motor does two revolutions for a complete cycle, unless it fires off a second spark at the very end of the exhaust stroke too.

The idea of my proposed alteration is to fo away with the distributor. I have found them to be the most problematic part on every car I have owned and so I have been considering the practicalities of removing the distributor entirely.

Tell me, if the distributor were removed what would happen mechanically? does anything rely on the distributor drive gear? Does it block an oil gallery which would cause an oil haemorrhage if it were removed?

...I have to fit a heater now. Damn. It hasn't had one since shortly after it was made. That bulletin is a pain.

Venom · Post by **Venom** » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:25 am

Completely removing a distributor would probably be more effort and cost that its wortth for an EA81. On the other hand you can get a pointless conversion for these for about $150, removing the most problematic part of a distributor. Or you can get an electronic distributor from a later model brumby. Nothing much else to go wrong with them once the points are gone, just replace caps and leads as usual.

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:58 am

Ratcamper is writing this from experience of ownership of another breed from the sounds - Fxxd of last 20 years have systems that I am familiar with popping out on components that make it hard for most mechanics to diagnose accurately so a whole lot of parts are replaced in the process and in the name of preventative maintenance. If it was not dizzy module then the pick up inside, aw now its the coil - so much so aftermarket dudes put together a package of entire dizzy and coil to replace as a pair. Then there is the seemingly so reliable dizzyless system of the Commonwhores. Rest assured these Subies suffer nowhere near what you may have found with other cars. Even the EA81 dizzy module still available aftermarket for $100 by ACA parts at a wide range of auto stores. Get a clean dizzy, have it overhauled or checked by dizzy specialist if it eases your mind and fit a new module - less headache , but no challenge.

RatCamper · Post by **RatCamper** » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:22 pm

Move along. Nothing to see here.

RatCamper · Post by **RatCamper** » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:23 pm

Distributors and the associated ignition system have caused me more grief than fuel pumps. That's a lot. Both points and solid state in Ford, Mitsubishi, Mazda, Nissan and Volkswagen.

Steptoe pretty much nailed it too with the no challenge aspect. It is a bit of a challenge but I think a 3 dimensional programmable ignition map is pretty damn cool. Especially when using a motor in a vehicle with completely different specs from what it was designed.

What's the hard part about removing the distributor? Unless it's doing something I didn't realise like driving the oil pump pulling it out and plugging the hole is about it.
The EDIS I'm considering using also requires either a TPS or a MAP. MAP would be preferable if I could find one at a decent price.

i don't remember if i said but this motor will be a bit of a testbed. It was sold to me with or without the sellers knowledge in less than amazing condition. I keep finding more surprises. Todays surprise is leading me to go up a temperature range in plugs

Might have had something to do with the fact that I discovered that the thermo fans included with the rad (was a fairly complete conversion) were stuffed. One had a stripped shaft hole the other was seized solid. Actually there were far more things that if I were a lesser man it would have brought a tear to my eye. So... does any pro EJ person have an EA81 lying around?

not amazingly relevant but here's a photo of my engine bay for the curious. I've done a bit more since then. the temp gauge is still there though! That'll be shifted when i get a nice long bit of trailer loom. it's not obvious but there is just about enough space between the pulley and the engine hatch to fit another EA81 behind it. So much wasted space.

Gannon · Post by **Gannon** » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:34 pm

Have a read of this Oddcomp's MS n' EDIS fuel/DIS

MS, short for MegaSquirt, is a build-it-yourself digital fuel injection controller.

MS n' EDIS is an offshoot of this project. With minor modifcations to the assembly code and hardware of the MS controller, it is possible to use the ECU as both a fuel AND spark controller

FujiFan · Post by **FujiFan** » Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:01 pm

RatCamper for years I have been considering EDIS for an EA82. My idea involved completely doing away with dizzy and even putting a welch plug in where the dizzy used to sit (less crap swinging from the crank) I have my own ideas and reasons for this. It really is a lot of work and I to hear your plight, but its a lot of work (read costly) to successfully carry out.
The other guys who have responded to this so far are on the money, an EJ?? series upgade is better value even if more work initially.
Most emmission gear on an older vehicle is on the engine itself esp carb. But with in EJ theres actually less crap. Mainly cause modern EFI engines are cleaner and more electronic by design. The fact of EGO sensor and Catalytic convertor that you will need to add externally. Being 75 model does it even have a charcoal cannister?

Im keen to see where you endup with this post:)