The RS6 - 1st gen Liberty EZ30D Conversion
- Donkeytits1
- Junior Member
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:20 pm
- Location: Canberra
So, I've got some catching up to do with this thread!
POWER STEERING:
Bleeding the power steering was an absolute bastard in this car.
Basically, because I changed the pump and reservoir over I introduced allot of air into the system and every time I ran the car it was getting whipped up into a strawberry milkshake. Logic was telling me its just a pump and a loop, so air will just pass through till it floats up to the top of the reservoir and escape. Of course the pump and other parts in the system chop up the bubbles into a pink frothy mess that isn't going anywhere.
The system was noisy, and it kinda half worked so I figured stuff it, I'll just go on testing other things
So read some forums, watched about 15 youtube videos, spoke to a friend who's a foreman in a Holden workshop and a mate who's just really handy with cars - Same thing. Fill it up, turn the wheels from side to side until bubbles stop coming out of the tank, keep adding fluid to keep the level right, let it sit, do it again (on jack stands of course), then the small amount of remaining air will just come out over a drive or two. This flat out did not happen, and it was strawberry milkshake for lunch every day with ATF pretty much covering half the engine bay
So I made the "Bleed Bong"
I'm sure I'm not the first to come up with this solution, but the idea is bypass the reservoir and have enough ATF volume there that the system can suck up fresh non frothed fluid for enough cycles to blow the air out.
This worked a treat. The froth came out and the pump stopped whining in about 5 seconds. Waited for the froth to settle out and ran it again for some time and was still quiet and no more froth.
With an empty reservoir it became apparent what was going on
There is a filter mesh at the bottom of the reservoir, and air cannot pass through it easily. In fact I watched a big bubble sit under there for about 4 hours without coming through. This is above the inlet and outlet to the reservoir, so air just circuits in and out under this mesh and can't escape. There seems to be a hole where it can come up above the return feed, but a big bubble was getting stuck under the mesh all the time. So I guess the Youtube way could eventually get the air out, but it didn't work for me over three days.
So basically, after using the bong I carefully lifted both the hoses up and joined the reservoir back up making sure to introduce no air into the lines (by making sure the lines and reservoir where full of ATF and that no air was trapped in the join) This was messy - but everything was already a mess at this point. I was then able to move the reservoir around to get all the air out from under the mesh. I actually poked a hole in the mesh before I realsised there was that there was that other hole near the return hose.
Power steering has been 100% fine since. Didn't need to let it sit for 12 hours like I read somewhere.
I think the bong could be useful when trying to troubleshoot a noisy pump. By running it from the bleed bong, you can eliminate air in the system as a cause of the noise.
ALSO NOTE: Don't use EPDM heater/coolant hose, use proper nitrile hose for ATF. Those hoses where all I could get at the time and where intended to be temporary. They went soft and goey in no time!
POWER STEERING:
Bleeding the power steering was an absolute bastard in this car.
Basically, because I changed the pump and reservoir over I introduced allot of air into the system and every time I ran the car it was getting whipped up into a strawberry milkshake. Logic was telling me its just a pump and a loop, so air will just pass through till it floats up to the top of the reservoir and escape. Of course the pump and other parts in the system chop up the bubbles into a pink frothy mess that isn't going anywhere.
The system was noisy, and it kinda half worked so I figured stuff it, I'll just go on testing other things
So read some forums, watched about 15 youtube videos, spoke to a friend who's a foreman in a Holden workshop and a mate who's just really handy with cars - Same thing. Fill it up, turn the wheels from side to side until bubbles stop coming out of the tank, keep adding fluid to keep the level right, let it sit, do it again (on jack stands of course), then the small amount of remaining air will just come out over a drive or two. This flat out did not happen, and it was strawberry milkshake for lunch every day with ATF pretty much covering half the engine bay
So I made the "Bleed Bong"
I'm sure I'm not the first to come up with this solution, but the idea is bypass the reservoir and have enough ATF volume there that the system can suck up fresh non frothed fluid for enough cycles to blow the air out.
This worked a treat. The froth came out and the pump stopped whining in about 5 seconds. Waited for the froth to settle out and ran it again for some time and was still quiet and no more froth.
With an empty reservoir it became apparent what was going on
There is a filter mesh at the bottom of the reservoir, and air cannot pass through it easily. In fact I watched a big bubble sit under there for about 4 hours without coming through. This is above the inlet and outlet to the reservoir, so air just circuits in and out under this mesh and can't escape. There seems to be a hole where it can come up above the return feed, but a big bubble was getting stuck under the mesh all the time. So I guess the Youtube way could eventually get the air out, but it didn't work for me over three days.
So basically, after using the bong I carefully lifted both the hoses up and joined the reservoir back up making sure to introduce no air into the lines (by making sure the lines and reservoir where full of ATF and that no air was trapped in the join) This was messy - but everything was already a mess at this point. I was then able to move the reservoir around to get all the air out from under the mesh. I actually poked a hole in the mesh before I realsised there was that there was that other hole near the return hose.
Power steering has been 100% fine since. Didn't need to let it sit for 12 hours like I read somewhere.
I think the bong could be useful when trying to troubleshoot a noisy pump. By running it from the bleed bong, you can eliminate air in the system as a cause of the noise.
ALSO NOTE: Don't use EPDM heater/coolant hose, use proper nitrile hose for ATF. Those hoses where all I could get at the time and where intended to be temporary. They went soft and goey in no time!
- Donkeytits1
- Junior Member
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:20 pm
- Location: Canberra
FINISHED THE EXHUAST:
And it sounds awesome.
Made up this little section of pipe
and a 3" RS Liberty exhaust fitted in no problem.
I seem to be lucky in that a $100 second hand exhaust is one of the best sounding NA 6cyl exhausts I've heard, and it doesn't drone. Loud enough to know its there, quiet enough that it doesn't yell hey I bought this exhaust when I was 17 and got a shitty cannon coz its what my said woz sick. You can easily listen to music and talk to passengers with the front windows down. Couldn't be happier with it.
Apparently it was a $2,300 system (with dump pipe) when the original bloke got it made up. I guess it pays to spend a bit on your mufflers and someone who knows what they're doing!
And it sounds awesome.
Made up this little section of pipe
and a 3" RS Liberty exhaust fitted in no problem.
I seem to be lucky in that a $100 second hand exhaust is one of the best sounding NA 6cyl exhausts I've heard, and it doesn't drone. Loud enough to know its there, quiet enough that it doesn't yell hey I bought this exhaust when I was 17 and got a shitty cannon coz its what my said woz sick. You can easily listen to music and talk to passengers with the front windows down. Couldn't be happier with it.
Apparently it was a $2,300 system (with dump pipe) when the original bloke got it made up. I guess it pays to spend a bit on your mufflers and someone who knows what they're doing!
- Donkeytits1
- Junior Member
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:20 pm
- Location: Canberra
FIXING DRIVABILITY ISSUES AND REV HANG:
It drives like a proper manual now.
I did three things, and I kinda did them all at once. So I don't know if it everything is having an effect or just one thing. I should have done more testing in between. I guess I'll update this little section in the future once I learn more.
1) Clean the idle air control solenoid valve - This was all gunked up with PCV blow by goo. Its pretty delicate, and makes rapid changes in position, so it is understandable that being buked up with goo will slow it down. It was operating allot better once clean
2) Cut off the "Air assist" circuit - Something I would ideally not do, but is a large part of the problem I think.
Basically, the "Air assist" circuit bleeds air to some little jets positioned around the fuel injector nozzels. The idea being, a jet of air is fed into the injector spray to help atomise the fuel and aide complete combustion. EJ WRXs have this "air assist" feature aswell.
The problem is, the air assist bleeds enough air for the engine to idle on its own (I tested that) and the computer must act to shut off the circuit. What I think was happening is the ECU waits around half a second to sense whether you have indeed began to coast and then it actuates the idle air control solenoid (which doubles as the air assist control valve) to cut off the air assist suddenly. During this time, there is enough air being bled to hold the revs to around 3000RPM which when shifting delays the upshift and when decelerating the sudden cut creates a sharp drop in engine torque which triggers transmission windup and oscillations (mini "kangaroo hops", or the familiar jerkiness manual subaru drive trains have when you give them a sudden throttle input in a low gear).
With the air assist blocked, (i'm pretty sure) the rev hang is reduced and the sudden uncontrollable drop in torque is pretty well eliminated.
IMAGE: This is how the idle air control solenoid valve controls the air assist bleed. Basically the valve moves "beyond closed" and covers the hole for the air assist witha s econd valve plate. This can only occur when the main valve is fully closed, so the ECU needs to be certain that deceleration is intended and that the manifold vacuum is not to high (read point 3) which is what I think causes the pause and the rev hang
3) Install an orifice plate under the idle air control solenoid valve so it limits how much air it can bleed.
PHOTO: The INLET is on the airbox side of the throttle plate, the outlet is on the engine side of the throttle plate. The "air assist" is not blocked off in this photo. To achieve the block, I just replaced that small hose with rubber plugs.
The orifice plate is a real bodge up with a hand drill. But it'll do. The air doesn't care where the hole is.
The idle air control solenoid valve does two things. 1) It controls the idle speed to maintain consistency whether A/C on or off, whether the engine is hot or cold, whether the air cleaner is clean or blocked, basically any external influence. 2) It acts to prevent a sudden vacuum forming in the manifold when the throttle is snapped closed, which is a condition that produces a temporary lean mixture and a large amount NOx emissions.
Basically in this car, in order to do this the idle air control solenoid valve seems to be in a closed loop control circuit with the Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor and it oscillates between fully open and partially closed while it figures out where it is meant to be to allow the revs to drop in a controlled manner. My theory is it is opening up too much as the throttle is released and the revs are hanging while it oscillates and figures out what its meant to do.
To dampen this effect, I've put an orifice plate so as the throttle is released, the idle air control solenoid valve can't supply enough air to hang the revs. Enough air still goes through to prevent the sudden vacuum forming (although not as well as before) and the idle can still compensate for A/C etc.
This may have an adverse effect on NOx emissions, but really, I need a drivable car first and foremost and I've tested that the revs still drop in a controlled fashion, much better than if the idle air loop is blocked completely.
So ideally air assist is a good thing and so is limiting the vacuum. But they are making the car difficult to drive. When this engine came out as an automatic, almost all of this would have been masked by the transmission and its torque converter, so its possible the systems are not as refined as they could be if this engine was released as a manual.
I am going to continue fiddling with these systems and determine whether air assist has a noticeable effect on fuel economy and whether I have the optimal sized hole in the orifice plate. Or, whether cleaning the valve negates the need for the orifice plate at all.
Andy
It drives like a proper manual now.
I did three things, and I kinda did them all at once. So I don't know if it everything is having an effect or just one thing. I should have done more testing in between. I guess I'll update this little section in the future once I learn more.
1) Clean the idle air control solenoid valve - This was all gunked up with PCV blow by goo. Its pretty delicate, and makes rapid changes in position, so it is understandable that being buked up with goo will slow it down. It was operating allot better once clean
2) Cut off the "Air assist" circuit - Something I would ideally not do, but is a large part of the problem I think.
Basically, the "Air assist" circuit bleeds air to some little jets positioned around the fuel injector nozzels. The idea being, a jet of air is fed into the injector spray to help atomise the fuel and aide complete combustion. EJ WRXs have this "air assist" feature aswell.
The problem is, the air assist bleeds enough air for the engine to idle on its own (I tested that) and the computer must act to shut off the circuit. What I think was happening is the ECU waits around half a second to sense whether you have indeed began to coast and then it actuates the idle air control solenoid (which doubles as the air assist control valve) to cut off the air assist suddenly. During this time, there is enough air being bled to hold the revs to around 3000RPM which when shifting delays the upshift and when decelerating the sudden cut creates a sharp drop in engine torque which triggers transmission windup and oscillations (mini "kangaroo hops", or the familiar jerkiness manual subaru drive trains have when you give them a sudden throttle input in a low gear).
With the air assist blocked, (i'm pretty sure) the rev hang is reduced and the sudden uncontrollable drop in torque is pretty well eliminated.
IMAGE: This is how the idle air control solenoid valve controls the air assist bleed. Basically the valve moves "beyond closed" and covers the hole for the air assist witha s econd valve plate. This can only occur when the main valve is fully closed, so the ECU needs to be certain that deceleration is intended and that the manifold vacuum is not to high (read point 3) which is what I think causes the pause and the rev hang
3) Install an orifice plate under the idle air control solenoid valve so it limits how much air it can bleed.
PHOTO: The INLET is on the airbox side of the throttle plate, the outlet is on the engine side of the throttle plate. The "air assist" is not blocked off in this photo. To achieve the block, I just replaced that small hose with rubber plugs.
The orifice plate is a real bodge up with a hand drill. But it'll do. The air doesn't care where the hole is.
The idle air control solenoid valve does two things. 1) It controls the idle speed to maintain consistency whether A/C on or off, whether the engine is hot or cold, whether the air cleaner is clean or blocked, basically any external influence. 2) It acts to prevent a sudden vacuum forming in the manifold when the throttle is snapped closed, which is a condition that produces a temporary lean mixture and a large amount NOx emissions.
Basically in this car, in order to do this the idle air control solenoid valve seems to be in a closed loop control circuit with the Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor and it oscillates between fully open and partially closed while it figures out where it is meant to be to allow the revs to drop in a controlled manner. My theory is it is opening up too much as the throttle is released and the revs are hanging while it oscillates and figures out what its meant to do.
To dampen this effect, I've put an orifice plate so as the throttle is released, the idle air control solenoid valve can't supply enough air to hang the revs. Enough air still goes through to prevent the sudden vacuum forming (although not as well as before) and the idle can still compensate for A/C etc.
This may have an adverse effect on NOx emissions, but really, I need a drivable car first and foremost and I've tested that the revs still drop in a controlled fashion, much better than if the idle air loop is blocked completely.
So ideally air assist is a good thing and so is limiting the vacuum. But they are making the car difficult to drive. When this engine came out as an automatic, almost all of this would have been masked by the transmission and its torque converter, so its possible the systems are not as refined as they could be if this engine was released as a manual.
I am going to continue fiddling with these systems and determine whether air assist has a noticeable effect on fuel economy and whether I have the optimal sized hole in the orifice plate. Or, whether cleaning the valve negates the need for the orifice plate at all.
Andy
- Donkeytits1
- Junior Member
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:20 pm
- Location: Canberra
Updated El Freddo, read above.
Also, to stop the Taco dancing around I added a filter cap to my circuit
Looks like with all the wiring bunched up and tied together I'm getting some noise in my Taco input wire that I wasn't getting before.
Oh and my radiator split in half, so I embarrassingly got towed home
Thanks NRMA!
Should point out: The seal between the tank and the core failed on the LH, or radiator cap side. So was not caused by the swap ie me
Also, to stop the Taco dancing around I added a filter cap to my circuit
Looks like with all the wiring bunched up and tied together I'm getting some noise in my Taco input wire that I wasn't getting before.
Oh and my radiator split in half, so I embarrassingly got towed home
Thanks NRMA!
Should point out: The seal between the tank and the core failed on the LH, or radiator cap side. So was not caused by the swap ie me
- Donkeytits1
- Junior Member
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:20 pm
- Location: Canberra
some thoughts....
1) I thought snapping the throttle shut usually results in a momentarily rich mixture (or at least did with carbys) as the air is removed but he fuel remains or keeps coming through for a short period...although the reduced flow can lead to higher temps. Two ways to reduce this: EGR and/or extra fuel and of course EGR is what they've done since the 70's.
2) For it to 'rev hang' (oooh, fleeting petrol version of diesel runaway;-) )along with extra air it also needs extra fuel...has it stopped sending the fuel to match the reduced air through the air bleed caused by your restrictor plate? My thought is the extra fuel will get to the cat and perhaps lead to elevated temps there, possibly damaging it (along with NOx of course)
Enough thoughts from me, they're likely to cause trouble....
Cheers and GREAT WORK!!!,
1) I thought snapping the throttle shut usually results in a momentarily rich mixture (or at least did with carbys) as the air is removed but he fuel remains or keeps coming through for a short period...although the reduced flow can lead to higher temps. Two ways to reduce this: EGR and/or extra fuel and of course EGR is what they've done since the 70's.
2) For it to 'rev hang' (oooh, fleeting petrol version of diesel runaway;-) )along with extra air it also needs extra fuel...has it stopped sending the fuel to match the reduced air through the air bleed caused by your restrictor plate? My thought is the extra fuel will get to the cat and perhaps lead to elevated temps there, possibly damaging it (along with NOx of course)
Enough thoughts from me, they're likely to cause trouble....
Cheers and GREAT WORK!!!,
Patrick
Ex- 2010 Forester Diesel
Ex- 2010 Forester Diesel
- Donkeytits1
- Junior Member
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:20 pm
- Location: Canberra
Patrick_1: Cheers for the response man, its good to be challenged think a bit deeper about these things!
1) TBH, I have for along time thought rev-hang, and the vacuum dashpots on carbs, where for NOx reduction. I first read about it when I actually owned (still do) a car with a carb - 1st gen Honda Prelude, and was wondering what the non functional dashpot hanging off the throttle was for. I haven't challenged the NOx belief in along time, and I cannot remember the original source. Its true I just didn't question my assumption and went ahead and wrote the previous post, so I could be wrong.
I see your logic - fuel is flowing, with an abrupt reduction in air supply the mixture turns rich until the fuel supply rate restabalises. Rich means high levels of unburnt hydrocarbons, which is another environmental concern they were trying to combat with emissions controls early on.
So I've had a bit more of a read, so far have found no real authoritative source that say one way or the other. Certainly this site says its an NOx reduction measure.
Either way, rev hang is there to improve some aspect of emissions performance, and unfortunately it makes driving a manual a shitter experience :P
2) The orifice plate will not have an effect on fuel mixture. The engine has two ways of knowing how much air is going into it, the Throttle Position Sensor and the Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor. (The computer also knows the opening position of the idle solenoid valve, and this is the same kind of information as the TPS input). Calculating air volume from TPS is woefully inaccurate at low throttle openings, so the system relies almost entirely on the MAP sensor (*1). The MAP sensor is downstream of the idle air control parts, so it is responding directly to whatever air the idle control valve lets through. So orifice plate or no orifice plate, the mixture is not effected.
(*1) Mainly because a tiny change in throttle position at low throttle openings creates a large change in air flow, and there needs to be a calibrated table for TPS opening vs air flow stored somewhere which would vary a small amount from car to car. At low throttle openings, this small variance would cause very bad air flow readings. The reverse is true for MAP readings.
1) TBH, I have for along time thought rev-hang, and the vacuum dashpots on carbs, where for NOx reduction. I first read about it when I actually owned (still do) a car with a carb - 1st gen Honda Prelude, and was wondering what the non functional dashpot hanging off the throttle was for. I haven't challenged the NOx belief in along time, and I cannot remember the original source. Its true I just didn't question my assumption and went ahead and wrote the previous post, so I could be wrong.
I see your logic - fuel is flowing, with an abrupt reduction in air supply the mixture turns rich until the fuel supply rate restabalises. Rich means high levels of unburnt hydrocarbons, which is another environmental concern they were trying to combat with emissions controls early on.
So I've had a bit more of a read, so far have found no real authoritative source that say one way or the other. Certainly this site says its an NOx reduction measure.
Either way, rev hang is there to improve some aspect of emissions performance, and unfortunately it makes driving a manual a shitter experience :P
2) The orifice plate will not have an effect on fuel mixture. The engine has two ways of knowing how much air is going into it, the Throttle Position Sensor and the Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor. (The computer also knows the opening position of the idle solenoid valve, and this is the same kind of information as the TPS input). Calculating air volume from TPS is woefully inaccurate at low throttle openings, so the system relies almost entirely on the MAP sensor (*1). The MAP sensor is downstream of the idle air control parts, so it is responding directly to whatever air the idle control valve lets through. So orifice plate or no orifice plate, the mixture is not effected.
(*1) Mainly because a tiny change in throttle position at low throttle openings creates a large change in air flow, and there needs to be a calibrated table for TPS opening vs air flow stored somewhere which would vary a small amount from car to car. At low throttle openings, this small variance would cause very bad air flow readings. The reverse is true for MAP readings.
- Donkeytits1
- Junior Member
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:20 pm
- Location: Canberra
So been playing about a bit
- The orifice plate seems to be the main thing reducing rev hang, unfortunately it does greatly effect stall protection. I would rather have smoother gear changes than have stall protection, so I don't care. Carbs never had stall protection, and we lived without.
- The air assist creates a weird thing where while the cars moving with the clutch in or in neutral the ECU keeps the revs above 1,500 RPM and pulses it up and down between 1,500 and 2,100 RPM. So you sound dumb when coming up to lights, but when you stop it settles into a nice idle. It also reduces engine braking. I'm assuming its some Auto thing. I do not understand what the control circuits between the TCU and ECU really do - I just know how to stop CELs. And that they are labled "torque control". If I can find somone with a running H6 Outback they are willing to let me observe I might be able to probe it and see if I can treat those inputs better. All this before I release the wiring diagrams :P
- The orifice plate seems to be the main thing reducing rev hang, unfortunately it does greatly effect stall protection. I would rather have smoother gear changes than have stall protection, so I don't care. Carbs never had stall protection, and we lived without.
- The air assist creates a weird thing where while the cars moving with the clutch in or in neutral the ECU keeps the revs above 1,500 RPM and pulses it up and down between 1,500 and 2,100 RPM. So you sound dumb when coming up to lights, but when you stop it settles into a nice idle. It also reduces engine braking. I'm assuming its some Auto thing. I do not understand what the control circuits between the TCU and ECU really do - I just know how to stop CELs. And that they are labled "torque control". If I can find somone with a running H6 Outback they are willing to let me observe I might be able to probe it and see if I can treat those inputs better. All this before I release the wiring diagrams :P
HI Donkeytits,
great work again.
Perhaps some monitoring- have you got FreeSSM or ROMRaider or an OBDII reader hooked up? That way you could monitor exactly what it's doing (or trying to do). Not sure if OBDII will work with 2001 as it's pre Aussie-OBD mandate. You could possibly remap with ROMRaider too. Lots on other forums. I must say I've simply stuck to OBDII for our diesel as it proved problematic due to moving to CANBus (VAG-COM/KKL cables wouldn't work) and have left it at that for a few years now.
Thanks for your link re: rev hang, I actually have a '04 SP23 (i.e. L3 engine), hadn't noticed the rev hang (it is slightly older than quoted '07 which is likely series II) or it hasn't affected me driving. But I think I have noticed it when revving the engine in neutral. I will go looking for it now of course!
I have/have had a few other cars I may have noted rev-hang on too.
great work again.
Perhaps some monitoring- have you got FreeSSM or ROMRaider or an OBDII reader hooked up? That way you could monitor exactly what it's doing (or trying to do). Not sure if OBDII will work with 2001 as it's pre Aussie-OBD mandate. You could possibly remap with ROMRaider too. Lots on other forums. I must say I've simply stuck to OBDII for our diesel as it proved problematic due to moving to CANBus (VAG-COM/KKL cables wouldn't work) and have left it at that for a few years now.
Thanks for your link re: rev hang, I actually have a '04 SP23 (i.e. L3 engine), hadn't noticed the rev hang (it is slightly older than quoted '07 which is likely series II) or it hasn't affected me driving. But I think I have noticed it when revving the engine in neutral. I will go looking for it now of course!
I have/have had a few other cars I may have noted rev-hang on too.
Patrick
Ex- 2010 Forester Diesel
Ex- 2010 Forester Diesel
- Donkeytits1
- Junior Member
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:20 pm
- Location: Canberra
Patrick_1: I've got a ELM327 dongle, and it works great with the android app. Once I get my lappy working I'll try FreeSSB. Highly doubt I can really get into the ECU though, enough to see whats going on with the TCU interface. In the android app, I can see all the sensors listed and some things are not listed there, like idle air solenoid position and anything TCU related.
I'll do a little more research because it would be pretty cool to work with FreeSSB.
I have read some threads on the RomRaider forums specifically regarding ditching the automatic logic from the EZ30D ECU, and all those threads are now dead. They did delve into the code, and found allot of strange tables and other things that I think they gave up trying to work out. So kinda suspect there is only so far you can go with flashing this ECU.
But I think I have my motor running well now, so I may not need to.
I'll do a little more research because it would be pretty cool to work with FreeSSB.
I have read some threads on the RomRaider forums specifically regarding ditching the automatic logic from the EZ30D ECU, and all those threads are now dead. They did delve into the code, and found allot of strange tables and other things that I think they gave up trying to work out. So kinda suspect there is only so far you can go with flashing this ECU.
But I think I have my motor running well now, so I may not need to.
- Donkeytits1
- Junior Member
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:20 pm
- Location: Canberra
Solved the high idle while moving. And, well, durr. It was an air leak.
So playing around with the idle air control valve and the orifice plate caused me to remove the rubber seal, which was swollen and wouldn't fit back in. I thought any leakage would be negligible, turns out I was wrong.
It appears that the valve returns to a pre-set position when the ECU knows the cars moving. With the air leak, that leaves enough coming through to hold the revs too high and cause poor driving at slow speed. The valve only appears to operate in closed loop when the car is stationary. The surface of the manifold where the IACV mounts has an oring channel, and is not machined, it is raw from the casting. So its conceivable that some air could leak.
I think I miss diagnosed the air assist being the problem because it of course it has some airflow associated with it aswell. So remove it from the equation and the revs drop. Two and two! My preference it is of course to run with air assist, so I'm glad it's not causing the problem!
With the orifice plate, an oring on the manifold side on the idle air control valve and some silastic the revs now sit at 1,000 to 1,150 RPM while the car's moving, and slow speed driving is much improved. Gear changing is nice and predictable, and I'm getting smooth. It's nearly as good as the EJ22 was.
So I think I've got it driving nice now, with an IACV clean and an orifice plate. Air assist hooked up and unmodified.
So playing around with the idle air control valve and the orifice plate caused me to remove the rubber seal, which was swollen and wouldn't fit back in. I thought any leakage would be negligible, turns out I was wrong.
It appears that the valve returns to a pre-set position when the ECU knows the cars moving. With the air leak, that leaves enough coming through to hold the revs too high and cause poor driving at slow speed. The valve only appears to operate in closed loop when the car is stationary. The surface of the manifold where the IACV mounts has an oring channel, and is not machined, it is raw from the casting. So its conceivable that some air could leak.
I think I miss diagnosed the air assist being the problem because it of course it has some airflow associated with it aswell. So remove it from the equation and the revs drop. Two and two! My preference it is of course to run with air assist, so I'm glad it's not causing the problem!
With the orifice plate, an oring on the manifold side on the idle air control valve and some silastic the revs now sit at 1,000 to 1,150 RPM while the car's moving, and slow speed driving is much improved. Gear changing is nice and predictable, and I'm getting smooth. It's nearly as good as the EJ22 was.
So I think I've got it driving nice now, with an IACV clean and an orifice plate. Air assist hooked up and unmodified.
- vincentvega
- Senior Member
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- Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:00 am
- Location: Brisvegas
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This is definitely an auto thing. my EJ22 auto converted to manual does the same. I have been meaning to install a manual ecu to sort it out. one day..Donkeytits1 wrote: - The air assist creates a weird thing where while the cars moving with the clutch in or in neutral the ECU keeps the revs above 1,500 RPM and pulses it up and down between 1,500 and 2,100 RPM. So you sound dumb when coming up to lights, but when you stop it settles into a nice idle. It also reduces engine braking. I'm assuming its some Auto thing. I do not understand what the control circuits between the TCU and ECU really do - I just know how to stop CELs. And that they are labled "torque control". If I can find somone with a running H6 Outback they are willing to let me observe I might be able to probe it and see if I can treat those inputs better. All this before I release the wiring diagrams :P
I dont have the air leak though. mine revs at about 1200 until i come to a stop.
awesome build mate. i used to play around with stuff similar to what you are doing so I can appreciate the effort you have put in
brumbyrunner wrote:And just to clarify the real 4WD thing, Subarus are an unreal 4WD.
- Donkeytits1
- Junior Member
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- Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:20 pm
- Location: Canberra
Cheers man!
Engine's sorted now. Runs nicely. Wish the EZ had a manual ECU I could drop in, that would have made life allot easier.
I've found in other 'proper' manual Subarus I've driven since that idle air don't operate on closed loop while moving either - Their idle is always a little high when moving, and settles on stopping. 1,200 doesn't sound too bad, the EZ sits between 1,050 and 1,150 now which is totally drivable. Don't even notice it
EJ22's have a pin you can ground I'm pretty sure, to tell it whether it has a manual or an auto tranny on it. Grounded being 'Auto'
Engine's sorted now. Runs nicely. Wish the EZ had a manual ECU I could drop in, that would have made life allot easier.
I've found in other 'proper' manual Subarus I've driven since that idle air don't operate on closed loop while moving either - Their idle is always a little high when moving, and settles on stopping. 1,200 doesn't sound too bad, the EZ sits between 1,050 and 1,150 now which is totally drivable. Don't even notice it
EJ22's have a pin you can ground I'm pretty sure, to tell it whether it has a manual or an auto tranny on it. Grounded being 'Auto'
- Donkeytits1
- Junior Member
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:20 pm
- Location: Canberra
Make that 100% certain. B126 (a) Pin 20.
Shown as always connected in the engine wiring diagram, which has both auto and manual wiring on it, but I've found my fair share of errors in the FSM diagrams.
Slide that pin out of your ECU plug, and you should have a manual EJ22 ECU
Shown as always connected in the engine wiring diagram, which has both auto and manual wiring on it, but I've found my fair share of errors in the FSM diagrams.
Slide that pin out of your ECU plug, and you should have a manual EJ22 ECU
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- B126 Pinout.PNG (4.55 KiB) Viewed 9491 times
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- Pages from Subaru Legacy 1992.jpg (84.43 KiB) Viewed 9491 times
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- FSM extract.PNG (15.9 KiB) Viewed 9491 times
- vincentvega
- Senior Member
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- Location: Brisvegas
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- Donkeytits1
- Junior Member
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:20 pm
- Location: Canberra
El Freddo: No you can't man, not mechanically. When operating in closed loop (ie when you're stopped), the computer is constantly taking feedback from the crank speed measurement and adjusting the IACV position to achieve a preset RPM.
I think I can change my preset value through FreeSSM, but thats because my ECU is newer.
I think I can change my preset value through FreeSSM, but thats because my ECU is newer.
- Donkeytits1
- Junior Member
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:20 pm
- Location: Canberra
So now I'm installing an R180 rear diff in the car, and this is the shaft I need.
Anyone know where I could get some?
(PDF drawing in the zip file)
Anyone know where I could get some?
(PDF drawing in the zip file)
- Attachments
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- CV joints.zip
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