Legality of hub/wheel spacers in NSW?

BaronVonChickenPants · Post by **BaronVonChickenPants** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:53 pm

I thought I remembered seeing a thread about this previously but can't seem to find it, anywho on with the question:

I've acquired some nice 16" rims for the celica that fit perfectly on the rear but the front wheel don't clear the suspension strut. I'm struggling to find any concrete information on what is or isn't legal regarding the use of spacers, I plan to find/make some that are hub centric and use longer studs mounted in place of the originals on the hub, so no double bolting, no extreme strucural load on the spacer, it is literally just a spacer, something like this:

Any ideas?

Oh, they'll probably need to be in the vacinity of 15-20mm thick, at that space they should still tuck inside the wheel arch and clear the suspension strut.

Jordan.

FROG · Post by **FROG** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:30 pm

black and white answer is no - comes from our service manager - Reason track of vehicle is altered from manufaturer
BUT...................
i have some lol

FROG · Post by **FROG** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:42 pm

this one ?

showthread.php?t=9982&highlight=spacers

twilightprotege · Post by **twilightprotege** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:43 pm

if it's anything like qld, you have a bit of room to play with the track. the illegal part of it is that it's something between the hub and wheel. if you weld the spacer to the hub or wheel, then you're fine (assuming you're still within the track +- area)

FROG · Post by **FROG** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:51 pm

just had the quote below emailed to me from an inspector i know in nsw as close to the horses mouth as i can get for you

"spacers are not. only way is get engineers certificate or spacers come with certificate"

BrennyV · Post by **BrennyV** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:59 pm

if you run coilovers this might also help you as they units are 1/3 of the size.

BaronVonChickenPants · Post by **BaronVonChickenPants** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:20 pm

BrennyV wrote:if you run coilovers this might also help you as they units are 1/3 of the size.

Are you saying the actual lower body of the strut has a narrower diameter than the standard style suspension?

How are they different to standard coil over strut suspension?

Cheers,
Jordan.

BrennyV · Post by **BrennyV** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:34 pm

this picture tells the story well

BaronVonChickenPants · Post by **BaronVonChickenPants** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:42 pm

Ahhh, they look very pwetty but unfortunately are no help what so ever.

The rim doesn't come up as far as the spring seat, it actually hits the lower body section of the cartridge.

Jordan.

Matatak · Post by **Matatak** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:54 pm

does that mean there a more Negative Offset? or becuase there wider tyres?

id just run the spacers and not tell anyone.

BaronVonChickenPants · Post by **BaronVonChickenPants** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:20 pm

Matatak wrote:does that mean there a more Negative Offset? or becuase there wider tyres?

Probably bit of both, gone from 185/70R14's to 205/50R16's, they don't really extend outward any further so I suppose the only option is for them to go in further.

Matatak wrote:id just run the spacers and not tell anyone.

The problem is I need to get it passed a blue slip (for the uninitiated it's a fairly thorough inspecting for an out of rego vehicle), I was hoping to put decent tyres on these rims instead of putting new tyres on the cruddy 14's, also I only need 2 x 16" tyres VS 4 x 14" tyres I don't even want.

Failing the legality of spacers, does anyone know of any bolt on lower control arms/alternate brake discs/hubs etc from something else that will gain me about 15mm of clearance and look legit?

Apparently my alias is unsuitable for toymods *shrugs*

Jordan.

Matatak · Post by **Matatak** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:26 pm

O yer ghey rego checks you guys have are a problem i suppose

dfoyl · Post by **dfoyl** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:33 pm

I believe the issue with spacers is it creates extra load on the bearings. If you use a rim with a -'ve offset and spacers, but use the stock wheel studs, you should be ok (I'm going to try this argument on VicRoads shortly as I am fitting a Borg-Warner XG Falcon diff under my VG Valiant and if I use AU or later wheels with the different offset they will fit under the guards, which means the fronts are going to be too far in (also being AU rims as they're a set of Tickford 17's) - which means I need to space them out to get the track correct to factory).

However, for your application where you are changing to longer studs you are changing (increasing) the amount of load on the bearings, and as such are unroadworthy, and are completely screwed if (a) the cops catch you and worse (b) you have an accident and the insurance company finds out...

The stupid part is that there are plenty of Patrol / CannedLoser / Pajero drivers out there with aftermarket wheels and heaps of offset, which are legal, but they are still putting more load on the bearings because the track is changed...

Dean.

Gannon · Post by **Gannon** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:47 pm

So where do we stand with our 14" desert rats that are about an inch further out than factory wheels?

BaronVonChickenPants · Post by **BaronVonChickenPants** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:57 pm

The stock wheel studs will get you failed because there won't be enough thread holding the nut, and therefore the wheel on, hence the need for longer threads, but as you say -ve offset rims and spacers should bring it back to spec.

RTA VSI 09 states that you're allowed to fit larger wheels as long as the wheel track (distance between the centre line of each wheel) is not increased by more than 25mm, but does not mention anything about using spacers.

An important requirement for all replacement wheels is that the wheel track must not be increased by more than
25mm beyond the maximum specified by the vehicle manufacturer for that vehicle.
Where non original axle or suspension components are fitted, the offset of the wheel in relation to the axle or stub
axle assembly used shall not be increased by more than 12.5mm each side of the vehicle based on the specifications
of the axle components used. If an axle assembly is shortened then the track width limit is taken as the axle
manufacturers original track dimension, less the amount the assembly has been narrowed, plus 25mm.

The theory behind the hub centric spacers is they have a recess that sits on the standard hub spiggot then the wheel sits on a spiggot machined into the spacer, then using longer studs from the original hub should mean that all loads should (more or less) be standard.

I may have to speak to an engineer, as the spacers would be returning the rims BACK to the standard offset instead of extending it beyond standard, and load would be beared by the spacers spiggot and in turn by the hubs spiggot, not by the studs as with cheap ebay still spacers, the theory sounds nice anyway.

Regarding your desert rats, they may still be legit but your tyres are way off, anything with more than 15mm larger diameter and/or 26mm wider width than standard is supposed to be passed by an engineer.

Jordan.

Update: Upon closer inspection I discovered this on page 4:

The fitment of wheel spacers (or adaptors for dual wheel conversions) between the wheel mounting face
and the road wheel is not permitted unless fitted as original equipment by the vehicle manufacturer.

Gannon · Post by **Gannon** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:57 pm

Im running 185/65r14 tyres which work out to be about 4% larger than stock so i should be ok in that respect

PeeJay · Post by **PeeJay** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:55 pm

The RTA have a tech email address somewhere, I used it to enquire about engine mods a while ago.

CPOCSM · Post by **CPOCSM** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:09 pm

dfoyl wrote:I believe the issue with spacers is it creates extra load on the bearings. If you use a rim with a -'ve offset and spacers, but use the stock wheel studs, you should be ok (I'm going to try this argument on VicRoads shortly as I am fitting a Borg-Warner XG Falcon diff under my VG Valiant and if I use AU or later wheels with the different offset they will fit under the guards, which means the fronts are going to be too far in (also being AU rims as they're a set of Tickford 17's) - which means I need to space them out to get the track correct to factory).

However, for your application where you are changing to longer studs you are changing (increasing) the amount of load on the bearings, and as such are unroadworthy, and are completely screwed if (a) the cops catch you and worse (b) you have an accident and the insurance company finds out...

The stupid part is that there are plenty of Patrol / CannedLoser / Pajero drivers out there with aftermarket wheels and heaps of offset, which are legal, but they are still putting more load on the bearings because the track is changed...

Dean.

There is a negligible loading on bearings, if any, if you are keen on using spacers. I say negligible when you use tapered bearings as they take a caning as opposed to true "ball" bearing old tech - granted the older bearings will shit the biscuit with wider wheels.

In NSW spacers are illegal if not an integral piece of the rim and I would look at the DOTAR's as well( will gladly eat humble pie if I am wrong). I had the issues with a mini I owned and tried to register - had spacers all round on standard drum brakes - I was failed. Went home and swapped the standard drum outers, front and back, with Cooper S rear outers all round - has a built in spacer(a 1977 Mini S had them standard due to the offset and flares).

Went back and passed as it was an integrated piece. The issue with spacers(now this is a mini hat on and not the Soob one)is they are usually poorly made and less than within tolerances. Therefore they "shuffle" around - even when you have the lug nuts wanged on to stupid torque settings - and in turn will throw your front geometry right out - I have seen a Mk 3 Austin rim desintegrate at Wakefield Park because the spacer cracked and then moved...until the whole half spun off and jammed the brake caliper and in turn threw the wheel clean off. Not a pretty sight and thousands in damage.

If the rim can be bought with a suitable offset - do it this way otherwise I thonk you may have to be happy with the look you have without spacers. At the end of the day your insurer wont cover you and you may be liable if/when they decide to fail...

Not all doom and gloom though - most rims can be beefed but will cost you.

My opinion only(and once busted...

)

BaronVonChickenPants · Post by **BaronVonChickenPants** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:21 pm

Thanks for your input everyone, after a couple of days of research and testing of theories I have canned these rims in favour of just doing it all properly and will buy some with the correct offset.

The last thing I want is for a wheel to fly off or have insurance not pay up because I was too tight to do it properly in the first place.

It's a pity too because they're great looking rims, suited the celica nicely.

Jordan.

tex · Post by **tex** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 1:40 pm

sounds like you would be better off going to a wheel specialist and getting the offset changed on the rims