Performance tyres for Outback ?

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valerian
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Performance tyres for Outback ?

Post by valerian » Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:32 pm

Hi there,

I used to drive Subaru Impreza with Yokohama A.drive tyres on it (and was very satisfied -- a very soft tyre), but recently I got another car, Subaru Outback with Pirelli Scorpion STR (205/70R15) tyres on it. Straight away I noticed that the grip in dry and rain was good, however cornering grip was bad (the tyres squeal when I turn around the corner in dry), and the car simply slides when cornering in wet. So that I set on the journey to get new, 'proper' tyres. Here is what I found:

Touring tyres (10% off-road, 90% on-road):

Dunlop Grandtrek PT2(standard price $188, sale price $155)
Cooper Touring CS4(standard price $206)
Michelin Latitude Tour HP (standard price $265)

These are the most intriguing tyres (available locally). The Grandtrek PT2 tyre is new for 2008, and is touted to to provide comfort for the SUV drivers. I suspect the precision of steering is not too good, and the cornering grip is not too good either. The Cooper CS4 tyre is new for 2008 as well, and is touted as having spent $200M for development. People on forums say it is amazing. It has lots of sipes which provides grip both in longitude and latitude direction, however I suspect the precision of steering cannot be too good (the car will wobble). It is guaranteed for $80k miles (the T speed version), so that I suspect the rubber is very hard... which is not good for grip. The Michelin tyre also has lots of sipes, and the rubber is softer (it is guaranteed to go -- what ? -- 50k km). It may have a better performance than, say, Grandtrek PT2, but is it worth a difference of $100+ ?

Also, there are the tyres in this size such as Bridgestone Dueler H/T D684 (around $150), Geolander H/T-S (around $150), Pirelli Scorpion STR ($149 on sale), Sumitomo SL850 ($165) etc, but I was not excited about them.


Street tyres (90-100% on-road):

Dunlop Le Mans RV502(standard price $215)
Goodyear Eagle RV(standard price $217, sale price $176)

Those are intriguing tyres because they do not have many sipes on them, so that they should have good precision of steering, and should be good for cornering. I read that the Dunlop tyre is prone to aquaplaning (which is not so good for me). There is almost no people's opinions about the Goodyear tyre.

There are also passenger tyres, such as Pirelli P4 and Yokohama C.drive (slightly wider) which would fit my car, and they are performance tyres, which means the precision of steering and cornering are good. However, they do not have a hard sidewall like the RV/4WD tyres have, so that my Outback will wobble when turning. Also, I am slightly hesitant to get the passenger tyre/street RV tyre, because I heard their flat tread does not provide grip on the sand/gravel surfaces, and I am intending to go camping sometimes.

Do you have any experiences with the said tyres, guys ? Thanks a lot !

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AlpineRaven
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Post by AlpineRaven » Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:56 pm

I'm not having a go at you...
Since I used to have outback suspensions on my wagon, I noticed the handling was different between Liberty & outback's struts/suspensions, Outback suspensions does 'squeal' around the corners more than with liberty suspensions, I can go around corners faster in Liberty struts. Its not the tyres, its body roll and all the weight has been pushed on one side due longer throw in outback struts..

Anyway to answer one of your questions above... I've already made my mind up, My next tyres that I'm going for is Cooper CS4 tyres, I got a price while back for $186ea for 17".
Cheers
AP
Subarus that I have/had:
1995 Liberty "Rallye" - 5MT AWD, LSD - *written off 25/8/06 in towing accident.
1996 Liberty Wagon - SkiFX AWD 5MT D/R, Lifted.. Outback Sway Bar, 1.59:1 Low Gearing see thread: 1.59:1 in EJ Box Page
Sold at 385,000kms in July 2011.
2007 Liberty BP Wagon, 2.5i automatic
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valerian
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Post by valerian » Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:34 pm

AlpineRaven wrote:I've already made my mind up, My next tyres that I'm going for is Cooper CS4 tyres,
First of all, many thanks for reply.

Have you spoken to the people who have driven their SUVs with Cooper CS4 on them ? Did they tell you it steers better (or whatever) than the run-of-the-mill Bridgestone Dueller or Yokohama Geolandar ? What did convince you that CS4 should be your next buy ?

As an example, I checked the reviews for Michelin Latitude Tour HP. It was praised as an outstanding tyre by many. Nevertheless, one of the guys said the tyre was crap. Only reading further, I realised why he said so: he mentioned that he got 60k km out of Bridgestone, and even out of Yokohama (Geolandar) he got 50k km. But he got less than that from Michelin Latitude, and this made him to claim the Michelin was a crap tyre. For comparison, I never got more than 30k km out of Yokohama A.drive on my Impreza, and I was content with it. This just means different people have their own different criteria, and the criteria should be sounded first.

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AlpineRaven
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Post by AlpineRaven » Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:41 pm

The reason is the thread wear rating I liked about. I do most highway driving say 85% of the time is highway, and with wet weather is... over here - I know we've been getting rain lately but since you're driving AWD... it helps... I rarely drive on windy roads anyway, it just mainly for - home to work and jobs, weekend drives but again rarely on gravel & windy roads, that is why I'm going for them.
Cheers
AP
Subarus that I have/had:
1995 Liberty "Rallye" - 5MT AWD, LSD - *written off 25/8/06 in towing accident.
1996 Liberty Wagon - SkiFX AWD 5MT D/R, Lifted.. Outback Sway Bar, 1.59:1 Low Gearing see thread: 1.59:1 in EJ Box Page
Sold at 385,000kms in July 2011.
2007 Liberty BP Wagon, 2.5i automatic
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valerian
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Post by valerian » Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:39 am

Just to finish off the discussion :-)

Here is an older, but quite detailed review of tyres... admittedly, mostly All-Terrain (50% off-road, 50% on-road) as opposed to the Highway-Terrain tyres (10% off-road, 90% on-road), http://www.4wdmonthly.com.au/tips_tyres.php

And here is an opinionof the guy about longer-wearing tyres which sums up my opinion as well,

"Some of the brands that claim to have a harder compound seem to have reviews that suggest that when they get a little older their grip levels can drop significantly for bitumen driving. In my opinion I would rather my tyres wore out a little quicker but always gripped well, its not worth saving a little bit of money for the sake of safety."

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discopotato03
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Post by discopotato03 » Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:02 pm

I think you are going to find that half the problem is Subarus suspension geometry particularly in an SUV which I was pleased to read in the Michelin blurb in that link are mostly driven on road - by the vast majority .

SUV's are not designed to be the sharpest handling things mainly because of their general purpose nature . Most people want a car that rides nicely and has a bit more ground clearance , the she devils want turn it with your pinky finger light steering and none of that fits in with sports minded suspension geometry .

To have supple springs and some suspension travel means softish spring rates and anti roll bars which means more body roll . Once it does the suspension locating points on the body rise or dip in the corners and the geometry goes out the window .
Serious off roaders have live axles so the body slops all over the show independently of the axles and wheels though they can get a bit of axle steer going on at times .

To sharpen things up a bit you can fit larger diameter ani roll bars and in a genetically front drive vehicle like all Subarus start at the back .

It is not easy to increase caster on later roo's because of that hateful elongated lower "A" shaped control arm . Easiest way to change camber and caster is with adjustable strut tops adjusted inwards and backwards to increase positive caster and negative camber .

You have to be careful when you remove some of the manufacturers deliberatly built in understeer characteristics because the thing may develop snap oversteer and spin you sideways or backwards into some immovable object . Ideally you want to reduce the understeer and increase lateral grip at the rear to make the thing more neutral .
THEN when you do all this the car is likely to chronically understeer in the wet so hard to have a win .

Lastly the longest widest tyre contact patch means zip if the suspension geometry cant keep most of it parallel to the deck .

Nearly forgot , Michelin is god in my book . They won't be top of the list in any of the tyre testers test but are often the best overall in class .

Not cheap but your car and lives rest on four contact patches so deserving of good ones .

A .

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Post by Gannon » Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:54 pm

I just got 4x Bridgestone Turanza ER592 on my 01 Outback and im happy with the grip in dry and wet, but they are a little soft in the sidewall and the car feels a bit sloppier around corners.

I paid $180 each
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Post by valerian » Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:41 pm

discopotato03 wrote:Nearly forgot , Michelin is god in my book . They won't be top of the list in any of the tyre testers test but are often the best overall in class .
I read that BF Goodrich is the daughter company of Michelin, and Michelin designs tyres for them. So, the tyre BF Goodrich Long Trail T/A Tour should be good... people give only good reviews about it. Maybe almost as good as Michelin Latitude Tour HP ?

The other tyre people are raving about is Open Country Open Country H/T. They say Toyo was a top tyre in the US 7 years out of the past 8 years, or something like that.

I still think Michelin Latitude Tour will be slightly better than those, but the question is, by how many percent ? I would like to hear from people and conduct cost-per-advantage analysis.

Also, here people are starting to rave about the tyre new for this year, Michelin Latitude Cross. The say it is a revolutionary tyre -- it now has an off-road grip just like the all-terrain tyres have, but it still as comfortable and quiet as the highway-terrain tyre, Michelin Latitude Tour HP. Though it is slightly worse at handling on-road (I wonder, by how much ?). Well, I am torn -- I am now considering this tyre as well. But I am yet to go trekking/camping in my Outback -- if I like it so much, then I will have a solid case for bying the Latitude Cross...

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Post by ORX-18 » Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:46 pm

DONT get the new grandtreks, they wear like a mutherf*#r. We have sooo many people come back about them. If you do majority onroad and the very rare (ie. solar eclipse lets go offroad) driving id just stick with a road tyre. we have an o7 3.0R outback and i found the dunlop 300 something or others to be good. Smokohamas are great for grip but shit the wear out like a porn stars franga. Best bet is to get proffesional advice from more than one shop. Coopers are good, but, beware that good treadwear ratings generally sacrifice onroad and wet handling. Good luck

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Post by valerian » Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:49 pm

ORX, what do you mean, "grandtreks wear like motherf..." ? Are they too soft, and wear out too quickly ? Or they are too hard, and you could never wear out that bloody rubber ?

At the moment, I am looking for the road tyre which would not chip when I drive over the unsealed road (somewhere in the national park) covered with rocks. Probably, the rubber should be hard enough to resist the cutting of the tread by the sharp pieces of rock...

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Post by Subyroo » Sun Nov 15, 2009 8:00 pm

I have Michelin Energy XM1's on my Forester and love them for their grip under both wet & dry conditions but I'm a 100% tarmac driver too.
They are quiet when cornering and I get just over the 50,000km mark, 56,000km to be exact :mrgreen:.

I know the OB has different handling characterics to a Forester but the Energy XM1's maybe worth thinking about too.
Peter

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Post by discopotato03 » Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:16 pm

A freind of mine here who's been around cars and bikes forever told me that Michelin have always been a bit more upmarket tyre and to a degree you get what you pay for .
With tyres if you buy cheap you generally get cheap and with the flood of budget rubber out of _ _ _ na there is a lot of garbage getting about .

Fuel/oil/tyres/brake pads etc , it comes down to the individuals budget and priorities with cars .

A .

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valerian
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Post by valerian » Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:27 pm

AlpineRaven wrote:My next tyres that I'm going for is Cooper CS4 tyres, I got a price while back for $186ea for 17".
Where did you get such a price ? I've contacted a couple of Torque Tyres shops and a Cooper office, their price for 205/70R15 is $206. The Tyre Power chain sells it for $225 :shock:

It appears that the Cooper tyres are sold exclusively via authorised dealers, and the authorised dealers do not back down on price. Which is a shame, as I found an independent tyre shop which quoted me a discount of $25 off a going price of $265 for a Michelin tyre !

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Post by tex » Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:14 pm

Another thing if you drive on concrete roads it wears the tires out terribly when compared to bitumen, But I have always sworn by BFG's so essentially michelins. But as a casing point about a third of my driving is on dirt roads and am sick of getting flats from the cheap tires i've been running and after putting a hole in the side wall of the last one only three weeks after buying it I've decided its cheaper to pay the extra for the BFG's and as a bonus get better grip!
87 targa brumby (Neglected),
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97 Lifted Outback (Dailey drive),
05 outback safety (Too cheap to pass up),
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Post by valerian » Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:01 pm

Geez... I often hear on this forum or on another: "Talk to your tyre shop, they are the specialists and they will advise you a tyre according to your need". I have always been vary of such suggestions due to my negative experience, but today I decided to give it a shot.

I went to the local Bob Jane where I always bought my tyres in the past years. I say: "I am after a touring tyre. Also, sometimes I drive on unsealed roads with crushed rocks, so that I need a tyre with enhanced resistance of tread to cuts and chips, perhaps with the better rubber compound".

The guys says: "Oh, then I have a suggestion of a tyre for you". And he produces a picture of Yokohama Geolander H/T S, and says: "This tyre has a road hazard warranty specially for the cases like yours. If your tyre gets the sidewall punctured or cut, then Yokohama will give you a discount towards the next tyre. Yokohama is the only company which gives such a warranty".

I think: "Geez... I do not need an offer of a tyre which gets me reimbursed if the tyre gets damaged. I need a tyre which has a design for a greater resistance from cuts and chips".

And I tell to the shop assistant: "Well, I asked for the tyre with greater protection against the chipping of the tread, I was not concerned about the cuts to the sidewall. And besides, the tread in this tyre is soft, so that it has a low mileage".

The shop assistant confesses that the tyre has a low mileage (geez... he was shamelessly selling me the no good stuff) but says that no tyre has a tread made of a rubber compound providing greater resistance from chipping. He says the softer the tread the more resistant to chipping it is.

I've told him that Michelin Latitude Tour HP has the tread made of the special rubber compund which was advertised to be derived from the earthmoving equipment compound. The guy is not ashamed. It looks like he knows nothing about Michelins (they do not have it in stock... this is a poor area, so nobody really buy iot, I guess). I ask him about the price. He quotes me $275... just a week ago, they were offering me $265 per tyre... I am thinking: "Crysis ? What crysis ? It does not look from those people that we are in recession and deflation".

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Post by valerian » Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:39 pm

I narrowed my selection down to:

Michelin Latitude Tour HP
Cooper CS4 Touring
BF Goodrich Long Trail T/A Tour

Curiously, this is the list of tyres going down in their quality of "premiumness".

By the end of the day, I decided that Michelin was too expensive (RRP $265, but I found a shop at $240 a pop), and the increase in the performance was too small for the increase in price. The dealers of Cooper tyres said they could not decrease the price from RRP $206, because Cooper set the prices. I thought it was a nicely looking tyre, but the tyre tread did not look good for offroad (just like Michelin, though). The RRP for BFGoodrich was $215, but I found a shop (Bob Jane, actually) which offered it for $159. The tyre had some features in tread which suggested it could do something offroad. And I read only exciting reviews about the tyre's comfort, grip and precision. So that I decided to go with BFG, even if it looked blandly.

I installed the tyres. The first impressions about the tyres from riding from the shop: the tyre is softer than Pirelli Scorpion STR. The ride feels more "squeeshy" (or, I'd say, it feels more squeeshy than I expected). The ride feels more comfortable than the ride on the worn-out Pirellis (oh well, here goes away as unsubstantiated the claim that BFG offers stiff ride). The grip when cornering around the roundabout is much better, I would say it is adequate.

So far, Id' say that this is a competent tyre -- nothing exceptional.

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Post by valerian » Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:52 pm

I guess I am going to do micro-updates. Over two days, I put in maybe 100 km. The tyres were really soft... softer than I expected. This gave a soft ride and wallowing of the car when turning.

I thought the problem could be in low pressure in the tyres. The recommended pressure on the label on the car is 29/28 psi. After driving for half an oir, I checked the pressure (as was put in by the tyre shop), and it was 36 psi (which translates to a cold tyre pressure of 32-24 psi. Hmm... that's above the recommended pressure. But the ride nevertheless feels too soft. So that I increased the pressure to 38 psi (after 30 mins of driving). The car became more hard-driving, although the wallowing and skidding stayed the same.

As a next step, after 30 mins of driving, I increased the pressure to 40 psi which equals to about 36-38 psi in the cold state. Now, the comfort of the ride was gone; the tyre was riding too hard. The car now wallowed less, but only marginally.

So, the next step for me would be to decrease the pressure by 1-2 psi, and get the comfort of the ride back. I will have to get used to the "wallowing ride". After all, I already started to get used to it. It is going to be OK.

The tyre is made in Thailand. The sidewall is made of the smooth rubber (no design on it) with the simple lettering "BF Goodrich...". The tread does not look aesthetically pleasing as does the Michelin Latitude Tour or Cooper CS4 tyre. The rubber feels very soft compared to the rubber of Pirelli Scorpion STR. I have never had tyre that soft. Oh, the sidewall is soft, too. Actually, the sidewall at the contact of the tyre with the tarmac bulges too much; I am getting concerned that it is an easy target for the rocks and sticks to puncture the sidewall. I did not have the bulge that much with the Pirelli tyre ! I inflated the tyre to a pressure of 40 psi (as was described above), but the sidewall bulge was still there !

All in all, I guess I wanted a tyre with the WOW factor, and I did not get it. (Something tells me I would not get it with the Michelin tyre either, as I would perceivethe difference in performance too small and insignificant).

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Post by dirty skirt » Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:03 pm

hey there i have michelin mxv8 215 /55r17 on my 98 outback and its the best i have ever had on a car i used to work at a michelin dealer and i got the tyres for nothing but in saying that you can corner at high speeds,they last for ever and i live on irt roads and the grip in the wet is great ,i know that the prices for michelins are high but they are worth every cent.if you cant afford michelins then bf goodrich are thenext best thing as they are made by michelin at a cheaper cost still a great tyre but cheaper
hope this helps

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valerian
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Post by valerian » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:24 pm

dirty skirt -- thanks for comment. I would note that Michelin mxv8 is a passenger tyre, and thus is purposed for snappy handling and tight cornering. The "road" tyres for SUVs have an "off-road" component to them (typically a 90%/10% split), which is provided by chunkier tread blocks with larger distances between them. This is the kind of tyre I wanted, so that I got BF Goodrich Long Trail T/A Tour. Unfortunately, it is also a squirmy tyre due to flexing of the tread blocks.

The only thing left for me to adjust the handling capability of the tyre was to play with the air pressure. The label on Subaru Outback says the tyre pressure (front/rear) should be 29/28 psi. I do not know to what pressure the tyre shop inflated the tyres for me -- I did the measurements on warm tyres using the digital pressure meters-equipped air pumps at service stations, but I suspwect it was something 30-31 psi. The ride was comfortable, but too soft, and the steering was unresponsive. I found that inflating the tyre to 38 psi (after half an hour driving) provided better steering response (almost bearable by the Pirelli Scorpion STR standards), but the ride became hard. I felt the cracks in asphalt road by my spine. Decreasing the pressure by 1 psi resulted in the magical transformation of the ride to the soft and pleasurable one, although the steering response worsened. I decided that I hated the hard ride more than unresponsive steering, so that I kept this pressure setting.

Judging by the current rate of wear (after 300 km), it looks like the tyres will last for 20k km... not 60k miles as was said on BF Goodrich website.

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tex
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Post by tex » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:55 pm

With your tyre pressure try an experement measure the tyre preasure when cold then again when warm ideally after some hard driving if the preasure increases by about 4 psi then they are under inflated if they only change by1 maybe 2 psi then the tyres should be close to the perfect preasure.
87 targa brumby (Neglected),
92 targa brumby (weekend runabout),
97 Lifted Outback (Dailey drive),
05 outback safety (Too cheap to pass up),
90 model liberty (was to be scrapped instead sold to workmate)
+ others.

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