Performance tyres for Outback ?

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Post by sub-mum » Tue May 03, 2011 1:52 pm

Thanks very much Valerian - I am with you, rather have a tyre that grips a lot.
Cheers

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Post by valerian » Thu May 05, 2011 4:56 pm

submum -- hopefully you got the tyre you are happy with :-)

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Post by Gannon » Thu May 05, 2011 5:33 pm

I have just passed the 30,000km mark with my Bridgestone Turanza ER592's

They still grip good, except when there is heaps of water on the road, they tend to feel a little aquaplaney. But i put that down to the worn tread
Current rides: 2016 Mitsubishi Triton GLS & 2004 Forester X
Ongoing Project/Toy: 1987 RX Turbo EA82T, Speeduino ECU, Coil-pack ignition, 440cc Injectors, KONI adjustale front struts, Hybrid L Series/ Liberty AWD 5sp
Past rides: 92 L series turbo converted wagon, 83 Leone GL Sedan, 2004 Liberty GT Sedan & 2001 Outback
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Post by valerian » Fri May 13, 2011 5:43 pm

Suparoo wrote:I my Bridgestone Turanza ER592's
Do you still feel the squishy soft sidewall ?

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Post by Gannon » Sat May 14, 2011 1:06 am

Nah i think that was only because i had what the tyre card said, ive added a couple more pound and it seems better (or i have gotten used to it)
Current rides: 2016 Mitsubishi Triton GLS & 2004 Forester X
Ongoing Project/Toy: 1987 RX Turbo EA82T, Speeduino ECU, Coil-pack ignition, 440cc Injectors, KONI adjustale front struts, Hybrid L Series/ Liberty AWD 5sp
Past rides: 92 L series turbo converted wagon, 83 Leone GL Sedan, 2004 Liberty GT Sedan & 2001 Outback
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Post by valerian » Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:44 am

Here is the newly released tyre Michelin Energy XM2. They claim it has 20% mileage than its predecessor XM1+. They say they developed this tyre to be stronger with the focus of using it in the "emerging countries" where the road is harsh and could damage the sidewalls and tread easily.

The tyre will go on sale in Australia in June 2011.

I wonder what will it performance be. I suspect the cornering grip will be dismal.

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Post by GOD » Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:58 pm

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Post by valerian » Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:10 am

Are you saying this is a one-actor theater ?

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Post by valerian » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:15 pm

valerian wrote:Here is the newly released tyre Michelin Energy XM2.
I called to the Michelin phone on their website (public relations ?), and asked about the availability of the tyre in my size (205/70R15). The woman said some tyres already in stores, and more coming "next week". However, no tyres in my size, and she does not know when they are shipped to Australia.

I called to a Tyreplus (an official Michelin dealer), and the man on the other side of the phone told me that some tyres are already available, and the tyre in my size would come in 2-3 months.

Go figure... the retailers know more about stuff availability than the resellers. :o

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Post by Gannon » Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:37 pm

Well im going to start looking into new tyres (the current ones still have life, but not much)

The only close tyre dealers are Bridgestone and Beaurepairs, but last time i went to the latter, the only tyre on offer was the Eagle NCT5, so i went to Bridgestone and got the Turanza ER592.

Now with Bridgestone, my options are according to the website are in entry touring, Firestone TZ700 and in premium touring, Turanza GR-90 and Turanza ER30

What do ya reckon?

Im gonna call into Bridgestone to talk to the guy there
Current rides: 2016 Mitsubishi Triton GLS & 2004 Forester X
Ongoing Project/Toy: 1987 RX Turbo EA82T, Speeduino ECU, Coil-pack ignition, 440cc Injectors, KONI adjustale front struts, Hybrid L Series/ Liberty AWD 5sp
Past rides: 92 L series turbo converted wagon, 83 Leone GL Sedan, 2004 Liberty GT Sedan & 2001 Outback
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Post by valerian » Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:24 pm

Gannon, I have never been able to find anything of interest in my size in Bridgstone. So that I have not done much of a specific research into Bridgestone tyres. But I recall recently visiting the Indian automotive forums, and they compared the performance of the Turanza GR-90 and Turanza ER30 tyres as equal or better compared to that of Michelin XM1 and Yokohama A.drive tyres, that kind of things. Generally speaking, in terms of performance, you should be all right with a tyre that has an H speed rating and is classified as "grand touring" tyre (as opoosed to a lower-grade "standard touring" -- the classification is taken e.g., from tirerack.com).

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Post by Gannon » Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:11 pm

I called in and had a chat to the guy at Bridgestone, he was actually very helpful.

He basically narrowed it down to 2 types

The Turanza GR-90 as mentioned previously
[size=-1]The Turanza GR-90 offers the ultimate in ride comfort, noise reduction and handling. Its superior design and noise-reduction technologies set a new standard for extreme quiet, while the outstanding dynamics and better water dispersion lead to a high level of safety and comfort. The Turanza GR-90 has been designed for motorists who want the highest level of ride comfort combined with Bridgestone's legendary levels of quality and safet[/size]
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And to my surprise, the Ecopia EP100
[size=-1]Utilizing global research capabilities and cutting edge technology, Bridgestone have created a lower rolling resistance tyre that maintains the high quality and safety standards that Bridgestone is renowned for.
The lower rolling resistance of ECOPIA EP100 improves your vehicle's fuel efficiency and reduces the amount of CO2 emitted into the environment.[/size]
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I was a little sceptical of the Ecopia, but the guy seemed to know what he was talking about and that both the GR90 and EP100 are very close, grip wise and longevity wise, according to him, up to 50k kms. I told him my number one priority in a tyre is wet grip and aquaplaning resistance, closely followed by dry cornering.

His response was that both these tyres are almost equally good in at delivering in the wet, with the GR90 being slightly better at cornering, but the EP100 will save me fuel.

He showed me the tyres, I actually liked the look and feel of the tread on the EP100's over the GR90's, but I really cant read a tyre by its looks so it means nothing

I asked him what would be his choice, and he said the EP100, but i think he rates fuel over cornering.

I'll pop in there again when it gets closer to tyre replacement time
Current rides: 2016 Mitsubishi Triton GLS & 2004 Forester X
Ongoing Project/Toy: 1987 RX Turbo EA82T, Speeduino ECU, Coil-pack ignition, 440cc Injectors, KONI adjustale front struts, Hybrid L Series/ Liberty AWD 5sp
Past rides: 92 L series turbo converted wagon, 83 Leone GL Sedan, 2004 Liberty GT Sedan & 2001 Outback
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Post by valerian » Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:04 am

I have a "fuel-saving" H/T tyre. It has a silica compound which is supposedly good for traction in wet. In my experience, the grip is good when going in wet around a turn of a radius of 50 m at a speed of 110 km/s. The grip is not good (for me !) when I drive around a roundabout of a diameter of 5 m at a speed of 40 km/h, either in wet or dry.

So depending on your application, Ecopia could be good.

And I think you did a good and correct approach to choosing the tyre. First you did a research on the Internet and shortlisted a few tyres, then dropped into the shop and felt them by your hands. Straight away you could see that you liked some for the tread, and did not like the others for something else etc.

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Post by valerian » Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:57 pm

An update. Next milestone. I wanted to get Michelin Energy XM2, but the dealer said they would not sell the tyres for the next 1.5-2 months. Perhaps the reseller wanted to clear out the stocks of XM1.

So that today I got the Dunlop LM703 tyres. It was the second on my list. I noticed straight away that the handling was "proper". I mean, good. Same feeling as I had with Yokohama A.drive. Lots of grip. This tyre meets the minimum of my requirements in terms of dry cornering grip. Though, it is slightly noisy compared with the BF Goodrich I had. But I guess I would get used to it.

More updates later.

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Post by valerian » Sun Aug 07, 2011 12:20 am

An update after 5 days and about 600 km. The tyres provide a quicker acceleration that what I had with the H/T tyres. I can now feel subtleties in the car handling and the steering wheel response. That's good. The other thing which I noticed that the car drives much smoother now. As if it rolls on a more plane (straight) surface, without shaking. I did not expect that, and that's a pleasant bonus.

I drove on the unsealed roads. The tyres are firmer, so that when the car hits a pothole it feels much more noticeable. But it is OK on an occasional trip on a country road. I did not notice a difference in grip with the highway-terrain tyre. The tread picked up little stones (maybe 10 per tyre), which was more than what I had with the previous tyre. This was the new tyre for 2006, and the all-terrain tyre Grandtrek AT3 was released in 2008 which had a very similar tread, except with some sipes. Thus, the LM703 would probably good for some mud.

There were two main reasons why I wanted to get something more performance-orientated than BF Goodrich Long Trail T/A Tour I had. Firstly, the BF Goodrich tyres were understeering during the initial 50% of their life when I was going around a small roundabout at a speed of 30 km/h and above. Secondly, the tyres were loudly squealing when I was trying to go at a speed of 50 km/h around a 15 m diameter roundabout (around smaller roundabouts, too). I am glad to say that the new tyres (LM703) do not have those issues. When I go around a small roundabout, the tyres do not understeer anymore -- it is fun to drive now. When I go around a large roundabout, the maximum speed is still 50 km/h, but the tyres now produced a muffled squeal occasionally, which is OK with me because it would not attract an undesirable attention. The only disadvantage is that the tyre does not seem to have a gradual loss of traction when cornering -- it tends to lose grip rather abruptly when I am speeding around a large roundabout. But I blame for it the off-road suspension of the Outback -- the car would do it with any firm passenger tyre.

The grip on wet bitumen was al'right. Some people reported that after 50% of tread is gone, it is a different tyre, with a much reduced wet grip. When I hit a puddle, the car jerked back more than what it did with the previous tyre. Well, I kind of expected that, because I specifically chose the tyre with the minimum amount of sipes -- I live on the edge of the desert, and wet handling was least of my requirements.

Some people say that due to its "performance" heritage, the LM703 tyre tends to be more noisy. I would say that the tyre produces more noise than the previous tyre or the A.drive tyre. However, if I had experience with only LM703 and no other tyre, then I would say that LM703 is quiet. The LM703 which goes to the European market has a sponge attached inside the tyre which is supposed to absorb some of the noise, however the Australian-imported tyre has no such sponge.

I would say the tyre is much on par with a popular Yokohama A.drive tyre which I used to have on another car. All in all, I think it was a good buy, and I am wondering why I did not buy it before. But it was not available before, this is why, I guess.

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Post by Gannon » Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:05 am

Sound good, what did you pay for them?

If I can find a Dunlop dealer around here, I will go check them out
Current rides: 2016 Mitsubishi Triton GLS & 2004 Forester X
Ongoing Project/Toy: 1987 RX Turbo EA82T, Speeduino ECU, Coil-pack ignition, 440cc Injectors, KONI adjustale front struts, Hybrid L Series/ Liberty AWD 5sp
Past rides: 92 L series turbo converted wagon, 83 Leone GL Sedan, 2004 Liberty GT Sedan & 2001 Outback
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Post by valerian » Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:42 pm

I edited my previous posting and put more description in it. I paid $143 per LM703 tyre of a size of 205/70R15. This is an average price for a similar tyre from competitors. But it has a softer compound, this is why it will wear faster. This is also why it is not recommended for driving on gravel roads. The tyre salesman told me it was a "premium tyre", and on a website of another tyre fitter it was referred to as a "high-quality tyre". I would call it a bullshit, because it is an entry-level tyre targeted exclusively at the Asian markets. It is not a particularly high-quality tyre, as the fitter put the weights of 30-45 g on each tyre. My previous BF Goodrich tyres used the weights of no more than 20 g. The tyres are available only from "Dunlop Super Dealers". The tyres are manufactured in Indonesia.

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Post by Venom » Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:23 pm

The weights you need to balance your tyres and rim doesn't indicate quality of tread or compound. You're talking about 20g - 40grams for a few thousand grams of tyre and rim. There are so many variables that contribute to how much weight goes on your rim that i can't really be bothered going into them. A large part of that is how the fitter lines up the heavy spot of the tyre and rim (or counter weight them actually), which many don't do because it's not a standard practice to spin up the rim seperately unless your paying for a top dollar premium balance. I might add that a premium balance is worth the dollars because it will increase tyre life provided your wheel alignment is correct and maintained through out the life of the tyre.

In fact i would say that 99% of tyres i saw never really reached their full mileage potential because people failed to maintain the vehicles wheel alignment and do regular tyre rotations. Unless you're doing that then the difference in compound doesn't really come into play.
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Post by valerian » Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:07 pm

Venom wrote:The weights you need to balance your tyres and rim doesn't indicate quality of tread or compound.
I agree with the statement. However, the lesser amount of weights or even the absense of those is the indication that the manufacturer aligned correctly the belts with the raw rubber during the process of manufacturing which says about the quality approach to manufacturing. Michelin tyres are believed to not require the weights. I have no other direct methods to assess the tyre quality.
A large part of that is how the fitter lines up the heavy spot of the tyre and rim (or counter weight them actually), which many don't do because it's not a standard practice to spin up the rim seperately unless your paying for a top dollar premium balance.
So, you appear to be a tyre fitter. I paid the standard asked price for the tyres (no discounts). Is it reasonable for me to expect that the tyre fitter would align the red or yellow dot with the low marking on the rim or valve stem, correspondingly ? (The tyre fitter commented that they did not do this because "the difference in their experience was negligible"). I am asking this because I am thinking whether I should ask them to re-fit the tyre.

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Post by Venom » Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:26 pm

valerian wrote:I agree with the statement. However, the lesser amount of weights or even the absense of those is the indication that the manufacturer aligned correctly the belts with the raw rubber during the process of manufacturing which says about the quality approach to manufacturing. Michelin tyres are believed to not require the weights. I have no other direct methods to assess the tyre quality.

So, you appear to be a tyre fitter. I paid the standard asked price for the tyres (no discounts). Is it reasonable for me to expect that the tyre fitter would align the red or yellow dot with the low marking on the rim or valve stem, correspondingly ? (The tyre fitter commented that they did not do this because "the difference in their experience was negligible"). I am asking this because I am thinking whether I should ask them to re-fit the tyre.
Using the weight balance of the tyre as a measure of the manufacturng quality is fine, but you're basing it on the balancing of a tyre on the rim. The rims are not perfectly balanced either, so you need to quantify that before judging the tyre.

The yellow mark is the light point of the tyre, which would ideally be aligned with the heavy point of the rim. Alinging it with the valve is assuming thats the heavy point, and it rarely is. It looks good when the customer sees it because it looks "right". you can't ask for more precise balancing without using a more precise balancing method, which you haven't paid for.

A more precision method of balancing rims and tyres is to use finger plates that hold the rim at the stud holes. A standard balance uses the cone in the centre, which isn't as accurate becaues that's not how the wheel is mounted on the car. Using the finger plate you would run the rim on the balancer, find and mark the heavy point. Then when fitting the new tyre you would align the yellow mark with the heavy point of the rim. That will give you the lowest possible weight that could be required to mount that particular tyre on that particular rim. I'm at uni these days but when i go in with my own car to where i used to work i do a premium balance and rotate every 5 - 7,000 kms.

Not every tyre shop is reputable so even if you pay for a premium balance you might not get it. Company owned stores tend to be better than franchise, because a manager of the company store is more concerned with service while a franchise owner wants to make money ( big generalisation, but true in my experience). I've seen cars sit on a wheel alignment machine for 30 mins then come off, and no wheel alignment has been done. People have payed for a 4 wheel balance and rotation and the front tyres go straight to the rear with no balance done (standard practice). Stand out front and watch, and if you get a wheel alignment ask for a print out. If they won't give you one go somewhere else. Any good tyre shop i worked out did a print out as standard with every alignment.
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