Brumby Project

mattl200 · Post by **mattl200** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:31 am

toyota diesel use a vacume pump mounted on the back of there alternator if u need a charging system for the 12 volt side of things could be worth a look

and most new vsd speed controlers for 3 phase motors in industry step down to someware around 48v dc then invert back to 415 (if u can get hold of one to pull apart)
larger ones may use higher voltages

the new ones ive just installed at work used a 24v feed to run the electronics and have a 4 to 20ma input for speed control

a 5k pot gives u pretty close to 4 to 20ma from one end to the other

tex · Post by **tex** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:55 am

From memory I think that the controllers use triacs to control the three phase motor feed which as you said change the frequency or amplitude depending on the controller so the lower voltage componant would be about right but do you know how many losses you are up for with the inverter as It will be seperate to the controller also on this your controller will more than likely run on a stepped down AC voltage rather than DC and in this case you would need a high quality pure sinewave inverter although you could run a seperate stepped square wave inverter to run the motors (cheaper). Maybe you should go to your local tafe and ask about motor controllers there if you can get to talk to the right person there they could be very helpful. The teachers at my old tafe would go hard over this sort of thing you never know they may even want to help sponsor it!
Great idea using regenerative braking too get back some of your power back works real well too thats what they use on diesel trains and big mining trucks but most of the time they feed theirs into a big dummy load!

YouTube · Post by **El_Freddo** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:09 pm

Maybe time to check out the "scrap yard challenge" episode where they had to convert a vechile to electric and drive it on what looked like a BMX track... The little Vitari was awesome!

Bennie

dibs · Post by **dibs** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 6:43 am

wish i understood electronics more . there is a way to charge battries in a car when its moving . iv sorts done it befor but back 35 od yrs ago tecnolagy was poor.
i look at an electric forklift would posably give you all the rite things
my thoughts any way

dibs

Thalass · Post by **Thalass** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:26 pm

Update!

Well... not much of an update, but anyway.

It's-a my garage! Or, it will be when they finish. haha.

Where all the magic is going to happen. :P

I've been keeping an eye on the quokka and newspapers and such, and it's a bit worrying how few Brumby's are for sale. Hopefully I'll be able to pick one up in Perth in the new year. Though I'm tempted to just convert my outback.

32ford · Post by **32ford** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:23 pm

thats a huge update, having somewhere to build cars and not worry about the landlord is a huge step

Thalass · Post by **Thalass** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:01 pm

I know, it's great! But I'm so impatient to be able to move in! I have Big Plans for all sorts of things I want to do to my house, as well as the brumby project.

Bronze · Post by **Bronze** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:57 pm

Very interesting Thread.

I'm hoping to watch you pave the way. I too have been watching the Kiwi EV project (amongst others) with interest.

Having only just bought my house I'm perhaps two steps ahead of you and also own a Brumby so you and I will probably level peg.

I also have an uncle and a nephew who are electrical draftsmen and engineers which will be very handy indeed. My father-in-law can get his hands on the 3 phase for me.

Hold ups:
* I live in Lake Macquarie and work in Central NSW (Dubbo) so I'm waiting for my employer to transfer me so I can take the Brumby off the road for 2 months.
* With the purchase of a house (with a garage) I don't have the clams to buy batteries, converter, gauges, wiring and engineering check.
* Wife wont let me buy a cheap VW as a run about while the Brumby is off the road.

Youtube has some fantastic EV information. This is one of my favorite sites - http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/

Lets keep in touch. My email is wefarwe AT gmail DOT com

Email me and I'll give you my other contact details Thal.

Warm regards

Bronze.

PS - Yes I will be sure to blog (excess Photos and Video) the build but don't hold your breath. I have been waiting 18 months for my transfer already. I will also post the harness plan when it has been drafted.

Thalass · Post by **Thalass** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:31 pm

Awesome!

The Australian Electric Vehicle Association forums are a good place to find people to pester for questions. As is the DIY Electric Car forum. The ecomodder forums are good, too. Only one or two EVs, but alot about aerodynamics and such.

It's a pity about Gav's Kiwi EV failing it's roadworthy. It makes me a bit wary to convert an old car like a brumby, but then again I intend to strip it right to the bone much like the Suby Boys do with their excellent work, so I should catch everything.

Good luck!

mattl200 · Post by **mattl200** » Mon May 04, 2009 12:33 am

back on the vacume pump
have you found these yet
first one on the page http://www.evpower.com.au/-EV-Parts-.html

BaronVonChickenPants · Post by **BaronVonChickenPants** » Mon May 04, 2009 1:08 am

dibs wrote:there is a way to charge battries in a car when its moving

It's called regenerative braking, most of the good AC controllers offer this.

It is a little more difficult with DC motors.

dibs wrote:i look at an electric forklift would posably give you all the rite things

There's a few conversions around based on this concept, mostly smaller cars, low speed, short-ish range setups, the main issues are motor weight, low voltage and comparitively in-efficient motor controllers.

I've had a sherpa come out of left feild for the right price at the right time, so this has become my long term EV project, short term it'll run in std form until I'm ready, but it will be taking a similar approach to the fork lift method.

There's plenty of info out there if you have the time and the google skills, just spent the best part of 3 days doing some serious googling.

Jordan.

dukbilt · Post by **dukbilt** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:06 pm

Hello everyone,

I'm particularly interested in this project - it's something I'd like to do too. I have a few Fisher & Paykel Smartdrive washing machine motors floating around in my garage as the basis for a 4wd with an electric motor in each wheel. The motors are synchronous AC motors used as 3-phase brushless DC motors (they are the same thing essentially). No brushes to wear out, permanent magnet rotors so regenerative braking is a given (so long as the controller allows the voltage to flow 'backwards' into the battery). They're light weight, compact, VERY torquey (and maximum torque occurs when the motor is stationary, so you get the torque where you most need it), and if mounted in the wheel you can remove the parasitic friction from the driveline, and save on weight.

Think of it - true AWD, with the ability to easily provide full stability and traction control by independently powering each wheel... The original brakes can be retained to satisfy the licensing people, but the controller can be configured so that if the accelerator is fully released the controller provides maximum regenerative braking. 'Traditional' braking can be used to further slow the car by using the original brake pedal. It may take a while to learn how to use the accelerator as 'coasting' would require a bit more physical input. However...

I was looking at a slightly smaller car than my Brumby (I need the ute for the farm) but having the batteries in the tray would mean that fumes given off during charge/discharge would be less likely to enter the cabin.

There's a lot of information about brushless motors and controllers as a result of the motors used in remote control cars, helicopters and planes. There are some super-cheap 100A brushless controllers for sale on eBay which would be worth a look for researching what works and what doesn't. They can easily be modified by adding higher powered MOSFETs. The industrial controllers are expensive in comparison. The F&P Smartdrive motors I have I picked up from the tip for nothing. They're a relatively cheap item to buy from a washing machine repairer.

Hope this is of help, and I look forward to seeing how you go.

Ewan

Thalass · Post by **Thalass** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:27 am

What kind of power and torque can you get out of those washing machine motors? The industrial motors I'm looking at are 11kw nominal (with four or five times that figure as peak power), and 300-ish nm of torque at 0rpm (of course). Though they may be too big, so I may go for smaller ones, but I figure two smaller motors would have enough power to get up to a reasonable speed (maybe 120km/h), and of course would have great torque at low speeds, so hopefully I wouldn't need a gearbox.

The main problem with hub motors is the unsprung weight affecting performance, and also the bearings in the motor have to withstand forces they weren't intended to. You can still have hub motor performance if you have the motors inboard of the wheels, with an axle from each wheel to its motor - cv joints and all. Your motors will last longer, at least. haha.

Anyway, the house is finished! We're living here now, but the missus has given me a list of things that have to be done before I can start my car project. Grass in the back, gates and a garage door, etc. So hopefully, money willing, I can start in the next few months. Even better: My dad has told me I can have (buy) his brumby, which I know to be in good condition body-wise. So I might be going on a road trip to NSW in a few months. Or flying there and driving back - the missus hated the trip last time we crossed the nulla-boring. :P

dukbilt · Post by **dukbilt** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:23 pm

The F&P motors are 1.5kW or so. I don't know what torque they produce, and that's the all-important detail. That's in their standard form, running ceramic magnets, with about 150V DC input. With Neodymium magnets in the rotor they'd have a higher power output, but then the stator would probably disintegrate. I'd use the F&P motor merely to examine the feasibility of the general idea, then make a custom motor using Neodymium magnets, Litz wire for the coils (this is wire specifically for use in motor windings), with a metal stator. If the unit could be sealed (and water-cooled) then dust/dirt/water ingress wouldn't be such a huge problem. Mounting them inboard will make the mounting easier, but hub-mounted motors will be the future I think. The hub bearings would be the bearings for the motor as well, so I don't think there's any problem there. The braking forces on the wheel bearings would be as great or greater than the driving force from the hub motor (just in the opposite direction).

Ewan

Thalass · Post by **Thalass** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:48 pm

(Cross posted from the AEVA forums - Tuarn is a guy there who converted this suzuki to electric using second hand industrial components)

thalass wrote: Hey folks. I'm slowly moving towards starting my conversion. The house stuff still is in the way, but I'm getting there.

In recent weeks I've been pondering the costs of my preferred method of achieving AWD in my car - namely two separate induction motors coupled directly to two (4.111 ratio) diffs, one for the front wheels and one for the back.

The main issue is not the motors, or the diffs, but the motor controller. A VFD can cost in the thousands - especially for one that doesn't take up a whole room - and potentially having to buy two of them would probably run my budget well and truly into the red.

The alternative is to do what Tuarn did with his Suzuki, and have one larger motor going to the transfer case. This also has the advantage of giving you a high/low ratio selection for 4WD. Unfortunately in the case of Subarus, the gearbox and transfer case are intergrated, so it would be a lot more work to strip the gearbox part of it, and just leave the AWD transfer case. And of course if I want full time 4WD, not just part time like the Brumby came with, I would have to fork out for a Liberty gearbox which would set me back possibly a thousand dollars, depending on age.

The second drawback of keeping the gearbox is that it is a lot more mechanical crud to maintain and there is alot more to break down. So I guess it's a balancing thing. Higher cost of 2x controllers vs slightly higher weight and more complexity of keeping (and modifying) the gearbox.

I'm going to post this in the subaru forum, too, to see what they have to say about stripping the gearbox to just the bare transfer case. Any opinions from you guys? I'm wavering towards the gearbox but in my heart I want a minimum of mechanical components haha

So what do you guys think. Is stripping an EJ-era gearbox to leave just the transfer case and hi/low parts viable? IIRC an early liberty gearbox has a crap low range compared to the EAs, though better than the current models. Would it be worth it compared to the cost of an extra VFD and motor (up towards 5k or more for the VFD, depending on where I get it).

This is already a pretty huge project, so the extra effort of stripping the gearbox isn't that daunting to me, I'll just have to bug you guys with a bajillion more stupid questions along the way haha. I always thought of this project as taking a year or longer, so having extra stuff to do isn't a problem.

Opinions?

AndrewT · Post by **AndrewT** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:08 pm

I like that Suzi! And the guy is in Perth too, would be cool to take a look at it sometime. His build is amazingly cheap, from the brief looks online I've done on the subject it's usually added up to alot more than that. He scored the motor for $250!
48km range is abit of a deal breaker for me, I would need to crack at least 100kms somehow. Rekon this could be achieved with simply more batteries? Or is this false economy due to the extra weight?

Sorry for n00b questions heh, I havn't done a huge amount of research yet.
I would probably look at doing a Diahatsu Mira myself. They have a curb weight of ~600kg from factory

I've owned one before, such a cool little car. $20 to fill it back when I owned it. I always wondered how one would go on LPG...but EV wow it would be cheap.

Thalass · Post by **Thalass** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:15 pm

I think there is a diminishing return if you just pile more batteries on. I'm aiming for at least 60km range on batteries - which will get me to work and back with some buffer - but later on I want to put a small generator set in the car so I can take it off road with the rest of you guys! haha

Tuarn got his motor (and the VFD too, I think) from Bills Machinery. When I get my brumby and decide on how I'm going to do it, I'm going to start hanging around there alot! haha

Point · Post by **Point** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:51 pm

I don't think it would work to strip a Subi box to just leave the low range, centre and front diff, as it is pretty much all integrated with the gearset. You would be better off using the diff and transfer idea that Andrew T is using on his monster wagon.

Thalass · Post by **Thalass** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:56 pm

That looks like a great way to go. Definitely worth considering. So it's now more nissan transfer case vs two motors to separate diffs.