Venom: H6 Gen2 Liberty GX

[El_Freddo]

Super essay Rhys!

All I can say is that I CAN'T WAIT to get out bush to see how this thing performs now!!

Cheers

Bennie

[subaruby]

Venom, very well said.

Everyone builds to their own requirements and budget.

I think subarus are a great compromise vehicle, and depending on your needs and requirements you may compromise onroad ability or offroad ability.

I think your liberty is well set up and now with the new gearbox you will have your ultimate vehicle.

Congratulations.

p.s really like the idea of the oil feed for the low range, have to check that out next time.

[El_Freddo]

depending on your needs and requirements you may compromise onroad ability or offroad ability.

Which is always going to happen for any offroader

Still smiling Rhys?? I bet you are...

Cheers

Bennie

[NachaLuva]

Theres been some great points made here bout articulation...if you have all wheels on the ground the diffs arent so important...but what about mud?

If you have 2 diagonally opposed wheels lifted then the diffs are all important...but what about the strain that puts the driveline under?

If you have it set up to be dynamite offroad its gonna handle like a dog onroad...

As subaruby said its all about compromise & i think Venom has hit an awesome compromise with selectively locked centre diff, effective LSDs that work, lol, 2" body lift with longer travel rear suspension, dual range, better onroad gearing & last but certainly not least, an H6

It should be a pleasure to drive onroad & be very, very capable offroad...
(hey Rhys...wanna swap? )

[ScubyRoo]

Looking great rhys, and great write up too!

Your drive train is mint - very jealous! Have you managed to get out in the rain today with the lsd's? Curious as to how the front lsd went on road.

In what way are you expecting the oil feeder to make a difference?

[El_Freddo]

In what way are you expecting the oil feeder to make a difference?

Keeps oil up to the low range - the inlets are directly above the low range gearsets. This allows you to turn it on when doing long hill climbs so the low range isn't starved of oil. Mine whine now after about half a minute of the nose being higher than the rear meaning all the gearbox oil is at the back of the gearbox...

Cheers

Bennie

[Venom]

Thanks for the kind words guys.

The LSDs are very tame on road. The front doesn't understeer any more than an open front (less often in fact), when it does it still has some bite and you can still steer the car. This is for both wet road and gravel. The rear does bugger all with the centre open since it's not really getting enough power to lock it up. I'd have no hesitation recommending them to anyone else, just make sure you go a 1 way front LSD that only locks on acceleration.

Fuel consumption has dropped about 1L/100km. Now easily dropping below 10L/100km, whereas before it was rare except for something like driving to Mildura.

The low range gearing is as good as i need it to be. My benchmark challege is Mt Black and Mt Brown in Heathcote-Greytown national park. Never been up Mt Black successfully. Bennie has with some effort, so has my dad in his Jeep (stopped a few times). I got up it this arvo in the rain and only stopped once LSDs were working most of the way.

The new limitation is definitely the tyres, but they can be for the forseeable future. A set of 15" rally rims to fit over my 4 pots is on the christmas list, along with some MTs to go on them.

Got some video comparison of some spots near Mt Black from before and after the gearbox, will post em up in a few days.

Cheers,
Rhys

[El_Freddo]

I got up it this arvo in the rain and only stopped once LSDs were working most of the way.

Good stuff mate! That's a very technical track even though it doesn't look difficult.

I'd love to have another go at it with the Road Venturers

Cheers

Bennie

[NachaLuva]

Thanks for the kind words guys.

The LSDs are very tame on road. The front doesn't understeer any more than an open front (less often in fact), when it does it still has some bite and you can still steer the car. This is for both wet road and gravel. The rear does bugger all with the centre open since it's not really getting enough power to lock it up. I'd have no hesitation recommending them to anyone else, just make sure you go a 1 way front LSD that only locks on acceleration.

Please explain!

Good stuff mate! That's a very technical track even though it doesn't look difficult.

I'd love to have another go at it with the Road Venturers

Cheers

Bennie

I'll watch

[Venom]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbskBdaT ... e=youtu.be

[taza]

Nice video Venom. What a machine now! The LSD's are almost as good as lockers but i noticed the front still gets abit of 1 wheel spin... Abit more lift could almost be in need

Nice editting as always Bennie

Taza

[Venom]

Pfft, more lift? It needs a rear locker :-D:-D Thats were i'm hoping you come in Taza... There were multiple converations this weekend about how good a selectable rear locker would be.

Love watcing the LSDs work their magic in the trophy run. Not as good as lockers, but a shit load better than open diffs :twisted:

[taza]

^ yeah a few more inches lift :P

Yeah a locker would pretty much mean you just keep moving forward. Especially witht he climbs you were doing. And probably the biggest benefit is you wouldn't slide back and cause possible damage.

I have to admit though im pretty jealous of your Lib, its pretty well setup

I have been having some design issues but am working on a different idea. Just gonna keep plotting away at it! My current open diffs in the foz just give me the sh1ts!!!!

Cheers
Taza

[vincentvega]

Awesome video. Damn that thing has some torque.

I dont think a locker would make that much difference. Looks like your rear end was working real well on those climbs, and the back wheels are where you want the grip for climbing.

You also demonstrated pretty well how useless a torsen LSD is with a wheel in the air. There will be other situations where it will work well for you though like soft sand and steep loose gravel climbs.

I will be watching with interest to see how long that gearbox lasts. You obviously like to give your car a bit of stick offroad so it will be a very good test. Hopefully you get lots of life out of it.

[El_Freddo]

I will be watching with interest to see how long that gearbox lasts.

I think there are many who will be watching with interest. I'd also like to remind everyone that there's another H6 getting around with the scorpion low range as well. It's still going strong after a number of years. I'm talking about the foz that SKT built that Dulagarl now owns.

The difference is that the Liberty has the centre locking diff for a true 50/50 split when offroad and it has the front and rear LSDs as well. The last difference when you really break it down is the diff ratios. Lib was built with a 3.7 for fuel economy where as the foz has the stock 4.11.

Cheers

Bennie

[taza]

The difference is that the Liberty has the centre locking diff for a true 50/50 split when offroad and it has the front and rear LSDs as well. The last difference when you really break it down is the diff ratios. Lib was built with a 3.7 for fuel economy where as the foz has the stock 4.11.

The locking centre would really help. Personally if I was going for an offroad machine I would choose 4.11 but thats me.

Bennie the 4.11 isn't exactly stock for the H6 foz because it was originally an auto. 4.11 though with 1.59.1 lo range would be stupid low Especially with a H6!

[thunder039]

going back abit, a lift is needed more then lsd diffs. not just for traction but for protection. i have generally lost ground clearance in my forester before traction. a lsd rear would help but not as much as the initial lift. just my opinion

[Venom]

Bennie did a great job putting the video together Thanks again mate.

Its got a full 2" body lift, outback struts and king springs. Its also got a full bash plate and diff gaurd. Any more lift is against the whole point that this is a daily driver first and foremost. Besides, it brushed the bash plate once maybe twice in that vid. That bash plate is like 1" clear of the sump. That means there's plently of margin for error, and the fact is we don't do tracks anymore extreme that whats in that vid. That means what i've done is sufficient, including a margin for error and with virtually no compromise to the daily driven priority. What would more lift have reallistically done for me in that vid? The fact is you would never get near that climb with open diffs to even start worrying about clearance and lift. I'd argue LSD's are actually more important than lift, because once you go near shit big enough to worry about lift your open diffs have probably let you down anyway. Now more travel, well thats different. But like i said an independant suspension vehicle with swaybars connected is shithouse for travel.

For that climb the RPM was sitting under 2000 most of the time, with the exception of when i lost traction. You can hear me almost stall once and the car picked up again from around 700RPM, ridiculous. The torque is why the 3.7s don't hinder the crawl ability of the car as much as people (and I) thought. Torque works with taller gearing. Numerically lower diff ratios are also stronger. Not to mention the 4.1 ratio requires a cut and weld of the pinion shaft, something I got bagged for earlier in my thread. Can’t have it both ways, and I'm 100% confident at the end of the day I went the best way for this setup. Given that, what would shorter gearing have done for me in that vid? A day in the passenger seat and you'd understand, which Bennie has done and now does :-D

Any slower crawl speed and other limitations are really going to come to the fore, in fact some are already. E.g. the 16” tyres with 27” rims, ideally I’d go 15” rims and get a better footprint when aired down. I’m keeping my 4 pots though so 15’s are out of the question until I win lotto and buy a set of rally rims. The AT’s are already a limitation as well, but only halfway through their life so they’re staying. I’d really like some 2” longer struts so I can piss off the strut blocks, put in some adjustable strut tops and get an extra 2” of travel, but not something i'll consider untill the current ones fail. The rear swaybar is still connected, and with heavy duty links too. I also feel like i'm at a point of diminishing returns, from here on in its relatively big investment for marginal gains. More important any real changes to improve offroad performance will affect it on road, something i've thought hard about and planned to avoid.

The clutch LSD does just as little with a wheel totally in the air, you just don't see that happening in the video. The slightest bit of traction though and you're off, but really same goes for the torsen. The front and rear LSDs isn’t the silver bullet for that diagonal loss of traction I’m really after, but they definitely are for taking 1 wheel off the ground. What that does is allow the car maintain more momentum for overcoming that loss of traction. They both help, and in addition to the centre lock the combination is all pretty effective.

I do take slight offence to the idea I "like" to give my car stick off-road. I like to give my car just enough stick to get the job done, sometimes that’s more than I’d like to. Maybe that’s the impression you'd get from 4 minutes of edited footage from a whole 2 days off-roading. What made the video was by definition exciting or exceptional and not the norm. Part of what gave me so much drive to get this drivetrain done was how much I dislike having to flog my car to compensate for those open diffs. Thats the beauty of torque, there's no need to flog it to go hard. My sig is a good example, all done under 3,000 RPM.

Considering the daily driveability of this car is virtually untouched (in fact improved), and consider its an onroader first and foremost, i think the final offroad result is fkn exceptional. Maybe my offroad focus with this thread is deceptive, because it doesn't reflect my priorities with the car. What we do with our cars is inherently a compromise. That compromise is unique to the individual. That means we all have different opinios on what/what not to do, or what should have been done differently.

I'd also add that this car has also been built to be engineered and therfore be totally legal. I can't lift it anymore or put any bigger tyres on it without some serious hassles getting it engineered, if at all. Engineers won't approve tyres bigger than 15mm diameter over standard on a Subaru, period.

[taza]

Very true what you said Venom, its your choice what you want to make out of our car. Probably the biggest thing is that you still want it to be a good daily driver while very offroad capable. Which is what you have done

I can't believe how well it still goes with the 3.7 ratio diffs Talk about heaps of H6 grunt Below 2000rpm is just insane!!

If I were to do that in my Foz with the open diffs, lsd centre and EJ20 with 1.447.1 low range I would be revving the hell out of her. Probably pushing double the rpm... 3000-4000 just to not stall let alone heaps of diagnal spin.

Im so jealous.

[El_Freddo]

Bennie did a great job putting the video together Thanks again mate.

A total pleasure! Once I get an idea for a video I need to sit down an push it out as you probably saw back at yours!

Taza, I didn't know that the H6 foz was originally an auto! News to me!

While I'd be keen to see what Rhys could do with a 4.11 diff ratio he was set on his build for offroad capability and daily driving. I did try to convince him to go with the 4.11 diff ratio, this way I could steal it from him and drop it straight into Ruby Scoo

Rhys, once again, a great write up that's clear and concise!

Cheers

Bennie