I own a vortex :)

Post by **Bantum** » Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:43 pm

There's a few things to check :

How old is the Battery ?
Battery holding charge correctly ?
Alternator OK ?
Do you have a relay to the Starter ?
Faulty / corroded wiring ?
Bad ignition switch ?
Earth leakage ?

Could be any number / combination of these ...

Ciao, Bantum ...

Post by **TOONGA** » Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:35 pm

Alternator is charging at recommended voltage. battery is good was on trickle charge prior to refitting timing kit. no relay to starter (not needed) wiring is good.

If you listen I'm sure there is a relay clicking while the engine won't start. which on the second start dissapears when the gerchug gerchug gerchug starts.

I've changed the ignition relay but I need to wait until tomorrow morning (when it is cold) to see if that solves the problem.

TOONGA

Subydoug · Post by **Subydoug** » Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:17 pm

Could be your starter solenoid Jules. My old van one day did a similar thing. Then over the next few weeks it got to the point of spending half an hour clicking away. I pulled it apart and silver soldered the contacts back up and it worked flawlessly thereafter. Could also explain the weak cranking power because all the power for the starter goes thru the solenoid. If it does it again try a screwdriver across the solenoid and see if it cranks normally. It probably only does it in the cold morning because the battery is cold and cant put out the amps like when its warmed up from the engine and the sun out in the car park.

Regards

Doug

Post by **TOONGA** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:37 pm

Ok this afternoon it cranked and cranked and wouldn't start 3 times without a start then on the 4th try away she went.

Im going to try another starter and another battery.

I have a sneaking suspicion I could have an unhappy fuel pump.

TOONGA

Subydoug · Post by **Subydoug** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:23 pm

I dont think a bad fuel pump would cause the sluggish cranking

.

Doug

Post by **TOONGA** » Sat Dec 13, 2014 11:27 am

Subydoug wrote:I dont think a bad fuel pump would cause the sluggish cranking .

Doug

Yeah ok Doug

the battery was the problem (I hope)

I swapped the battery from my brumby in this morning and no slugish cranking, yet the battery from the vortex works fine in the brumby.

I guess even though it was holding charge, it was discharging too quickly on cranking causing the problem (good theory Doug?)

TOONGA

NachaLuva · Post by **NachaLuva** » Sat Dec 13, 2014 11:51 am

Or a bad connection fixed when you swapped batteries?

Post by **TOONGA** » Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:27 pm

NachaLuva wrote:Or a bad connection fixed when you swapped batteries?

Could have been but I doubt it, as the battery was on charge for 2 days before I put it in with clean poles and a clean positive and brand new negative clamp.

the battery from my brumby is a calcium hybrid (no idea what that means) and it has 400 what evers of cranking power. the vortex battery was a normal job with 400 what evers of cranking power (my very technical unit of what evers

)

I would say the vortex battery, now brumby battery is getting a bit long in the tooth at 2 years old

TOONGA

Post by **TOONGA** » Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:02 am

So I like testing my cars to see just how well they go

About 10 Kms from the Preston beach south entrance (I think)

A fishing Party (fishing for CC's when I got there)

THe biggest problem I had was the fuse holder for the thermo fans melting down from too much draw. Oh and my wife and kids screaming with joy? as we hurtled down the beach in Jetcar AKA the sand rail.

I think I need to put the lower air dam back on to try and stop the sand castles that were being built in the engine bay

TOONGA

Post by **TOONGA** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 1:35 pm

So it seems with the new year the vortex has decided that not starting is a good idea.

questions asked and answered many times

Please remember this is an EJ22 conversion not an EA82

what condition is the fuel pump in? both fuel pumps work I swapped out the working aftermarket pump back to the Subaru pump which works.

How old is the Battery ? ... less than 2 years old so was the other one I swapped it with.

Battery holding charge correctly ? ... yes I can crank the starter all day both batterys hold charge.

what condition are the battery terminals and clamps in? the battery terminals and clamps have been cleaned

What condition are the positive and negative battery leads? 12mm copper leads from a late model liberty.

Alternator OK ? I changed from 4 wire to later 2 wire model and it is charging at 14+ volts

Do you have a relay to the Starter ? no Don't need one as the starter cranks every time.

Is the starter in good condition? I have a reduction starter. I pulled it apart this morning and cleaned all the carbon out of it, the brushes for the motor are near new, as well I greased the bearings and gears for good measure

Faulty / corroded wiring ? wiring has been checked and is jn good condition.

Bad ignition switch ? ignition switch is good (so is the spare)

Earth leakage ? all earths tested no noticable leakage

injectors not tested but can be heard ticking away nicely when the damn engine runs.

Is the igntor working? Ignitor checked and the spare was checked as well both are working units

Is the coil pack working? coil pack checked and the spare was checked as well both are working units

the EJ starter circuit and fuel pump relay the orange / yellow jadeco relay (one of 5 working units) works fine as does the other round subaru relay for the ignition(one of about 10 working ones)

upper cylinder cleaner used about 4 months ago.

injector cleaner less than amonth ago.

Sensors checked and replaced with known working units

AFM, IACV, Crank AS, Cam AS, Knock sensor, O2 sensor (new one in the mail) Water temp sender is brand new from subaru.

All sensors listed have values with in range at the ECU (was fun to check)

now I have a question ...

will a faulty TPS stop the engine from starting?

according to the error code section the ECU should supply a value if the TPS is faulty so the engine starts (but runs in limp mode)

My engine just floods and won't start. must bang head against fault line

TOONGA

nncoolg · Post by **nncoolg** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 1:50 pm

Forget about the starter, if it turns over it, the battery, the cables, the clamps are all doing their job, The alt is only to keep the battery topped up, so forget about it too.

Are you getting ignition? - at the plug? if so, are you getting ignition under compression?
If you are using NGK plugs, try champion, they are more resistant to shorting.

If you are confident ignition is fine, how old is the fuel? doesnt take long to go off, especially if it is an ethanol blend
Have you tried giving it a 'cup of tea' down the throttle body then cranking?

YouTube · Post by **El_Freddo** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 1:56 pm

Time to replace the ignitor?

Only ask as it seems that you don't have any spark if it's just flooding.

I had an issue with the TPS unit being a part of a problem with starting and poor running. At the same time I replaced the knock sensor and temp sensor. The TPS was replaced with a cleaned out second hand unit.

But I was still able to start it with a lot of effort.

Are you using the EJ starter circuit in the conversion?

It is possible that the TPS could stop/make it difficult to start the engine.

Cheers

Bennie

Post by **TOONGA** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 2:21 pm

nncoolg wrote:Forget about the starter, if it turns over it, the battery, the cables, the clamps are all doing their job, The alt is only to keep the battery topped up, so forget about it too.

Are you getting ignition? - at the plug? if so, are you getting ignition under compression?
If you are using NGK plugs, try champion, they are more resistant to shorting.

If you are confident ignition is fine, how old is the fuel? doesnt take long to go off, especially if it is an ethanol blend
Have you tried giving it a 'cup of tea' down the throttle body then cranking?

I'm using the correct AC delco platinum plugs.

fuel is less than a week old as stated it floods and won't start

I used start you barstard to get it home yesterday this morning it just doesn't start. even when given a squirt.

El_Freddo wrote:Time to replace the ignitor?

Only ask as it seems that you don't have any spark if it's just flooding.

I had an issue with the TPS unit being a part of a problem with starting and poor running. At the same time I replaced the knock sensor and temp sensor. The TPS was replaced with a cleaned out second hand unit.

But I was still able to start it with a lot of effort.

Are you using the EJ starter circuit in the conversion?

It is possible that the TPS could stop/make it difficult to start the engine.

Cheers

Bennie

Igntor was tested and replaced and tested I added that to the post along with the tests for the coil packs.

every sensor has been tested or tested and replaced apart from the TPS

which I can't test until my new voltmeter arrives in the next 2 weeks

Yes I'm using the EJ starter circuit and fuel pump relay the orange / yellow jadeco relay (one of 5 working units) works fine as does the other round subaru relay for the ignition(one of about 10 working ones)

I've given up for today as it gets hot in that car in the sun.

TOONGA

Subydoug · Post by **Subydoug** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 3:51 pm

If you want Jules your welcome to bring it around some time and we can have a look at all your signals with my scope, make sure they look happy.

If its flooded, spraying more fuel down its gob aint gonna help. Try cranking at WOT, if the ecu is smart enough it will realize your trying to clear a flood and turn off the injectors.

Regards

Doug

Post by **TOONGA** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 4:43 pm

Subydoug wrote:If you want Jules your welcome to bring it around some time and we can have a look at all your signals with my scope, make sure they look happy.

If its flooded, spraying more fuel down its gob aint gonna help. Try cranking at WOT, if the ecu is smart enough it will realize your trying to clear a flood and turn off the injectors.

Regards

Doug

Doug if I could get it to start I would drive up today

I got it to start doing that yesterday, but today no luck.

TOONGA

Post by **TOONGA** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:37 pm

So guess what I didn't check ... ever since the conversion was done.

I assumed they were fine as the fuel pump worked but I will let the picture tell the story

car is starting and running without a problem

I'm a goose.

TOONGA

Subydoug · Post by **Subydoug** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:38 pm

Regards

Doug

Post by **TOONGA** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:50 pm

Seems there are two 20 amp fuses that take the power to the relay for fuel pump.
I have not followed the wiring but the fuses were in rubber fuse holders. I had to pry them out of the caps two new fuses later and my "possessed" vortex is running again.

TOONGA

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Fri Jan 02, 2015 6:52 am

Slap yourself on the back for nutting it out on your own Jules. These must have been part of the conversion electricals ? I think 99.9% of us are guilty of not updating a handbook on conversion, so zip to refer to when chasing ghouls and demons. Though, my Brumbys are starting to read like those dodgy aftermarket parts books that reckon any Brumby after 1985 has a timing belt kit and other EA82 stuff

I used to part #'s on underside of bonnet.

Have you seen those fuses that supposedly light up a built in LED ? when they blow ? Jaycar had them at twice price of a std blade fuse. Still be no good inside a dark fuse holder

Did the fuse break or blow ? Chasing cause or leave that until next time ?

Post by **TOONGA** » Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:39 am

Yeah ... I went back in this thread and found I posted first about this problem on the 19th of October. in hindsight I wish I had checked them first

it would've been a lot cheaper

Mind you I now have :

a new timing kit

The coolant temp sender (new)

the knock sensor (new)

the crank angle sensor (working second hand unit)

the cam angle sensor (working second hand unit)

the igniter (working second hand unit)

the coil pack (working second hand unit)

the afm (working second hand unit)

the O2 sensor (working second hand unit) (new one coming from THE USA)

the ECU (working second hand unit) ( I have 3 different years to choose from

)

ALL with spares (apart from the timing kit)

If I was really worried I suppose I could get another TPS as well

I wonder what other fuses I can find under there today

TOONGA

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