Articulation

[frogstar7055]

So I've been running around with the front sway bar and no rear sway bar.

Decided to do a test.
(this was as far as I could go before leaving rubber on the pavement)










So I disconnected the front sway bar and took it for a ride.
Not as much body roll as I expected,didn't get on the highway but imagine it's quite noticeable there.



Went back up the ramps,what a difference.
(could have went farther,couldn't rock it at all like this)








So that's all fine and good but would it make a difference off road.
Luckily I have a small area to play in right next to my neighborhood.
Theirs a hill there about 20/25 ft high,about 45 deg angle,rutted and off camber.
I could climb it with the front sway but only with some momentum.
Now I crawled up it from a dead stop in 2nd gear with the 4eat lock engaged,no wheel spin whatsoever.



I made quick disconnects for the rear before I removed it completely,thinking of putting that back on and removing the front.
Anybody done this,any thoughts?

[78sti]

Nice post!

I knew it made a difference, but I did not think it would be that much!

It would be interesting to do the test with the rear sway bar in and get some measurements.

Maby someone needs to invent some simple sway bar dissconnectors for off road? Then you have the best of both.

[spike]

its been done 78sti....

subaruforester.org

[longy99gt]

on my last trip only a couple weeks ago we managed to rattle of the front sway bar bolts, and snap a rear link,
so we drove around with a car at almost its GVM with no sway bars,
the arse end was almost bottomed out, so on the highway that acted as a rear sway bar in itself,
its was a lil more rolly,
but offroad, i took it thru the murchsion 4wd adventure park,
well i got my car thru more than it was ment for?????
and having no sway bars did make a huge difference, was a lot harder to get a wheel off the ground, but i still tried hard to and succeeded,
PS, i wouldnt take an unlifted forester there, there wouldnt be much to do,
cant wait to get some HD springs aswell!
just need spare cash,

[Captain Obvious]

hmmm might have to have a play on the weekend, i havent run a rear sway bar for a few years as well but allways run the front!!

[discopotato03]

Try it for yourselves but you will find that from an on road viewpoint the rear anti roll bar has a greater affect on body roll and handling .
The reason why you use anti roll bars on road is to stop the body roll which alters the suspensions body mounting locations in relation to the road .
Its the dynamic or effective geometry change that makes the handling go from so so to diabolical in Subaru's .

The off road situation is totally different , having the tyres on the ground means everything in a traction limited situation and geometry takes a back seat to wheel travel/axle articulation .

These Subaru's being SUVs means the manufacturer biases the suspension towards road use because statistics show that overall the buying public is more interested in looking the part than actually getting the tyres dirty .
This is why they ride nicely and arguably handle OK if you're not very adventurous .
Funny actually , advertising states these days SUVs for the City in some cases though I haven't seen Subaru marketing mention this yet .

A .

[AlpineRaven]

Ive done it before but didnt like it as i was in fear around the corners as sometimes i go a bit too fast but its handy without bars offroad. I would do that if I was taking my Liberty offroad all the time.
Cheers
AP

[d_generate]

What size rear sways are on the Foz? if they are 18mm you could try the Liberty GX/GL which are only 13mm, that's what I have on the WRX.

[justin35]

Gday there,just a thought but have a look at your brake lines while you jack up the front of your car to get full travel ,i know that on the nissan patrols if you take of the swaybar at the front the wheels travel so much more that they rip out the brake lines,,might not be the case with the subi but non the less worth checking to be save.

[D3V1L]

have a look at the bigger 4x4 swaybar disco's i think a heap of them could be modded to fit a soob sway bar. the very simple in design and very handy to have... having said that i never ran sway bars on any of my cars and just had to take corners a tad slower then used to but no drama

i was gonna put up a couple of pics of real flex of some of our older members whove moved on to live axles but its a subaru forum

davo

[El_Freddo]

I've been meaning to look into a quick release mechanism for the front sway bar on Ruby Scoo. One of the many things still on the to do list!

Cheers

Bennie

[discopotato03]

Well the way I see it the term articulation really describes what live axle vehicles do .
I know you Subie off roaders don't like hearing it but the truth is that your vehicles are really SUVs and thats why they have relatively short suspension arms/links and at maximum travel they describe small radius arcs and limit wheel travel . Live axles aren't perfect but with a bit of serious engineering can result in very extreme articulation which enables them to keep their wheels on the ground over very uneven terrain .
When you can't do this you have to resort to diff locks etc and hope whats on the ground has enough adhesion to keep you moving .

Vehicles with anti roll bars never have good wheel travel/live axle articulation because the two are at opposites . An anti roll bar is a pass through device aimed at increasing roll stiffness and doing so limits travel/live axle articulation .

Road or rock hopping , take your pick because you cannot have it both ways without altering things .

[Venom]

Well the way I see it the term articulation really describes what live axle vehicles do .
I know you Subie off roaders don't like hearing it but the truth is that your vehicles are really SUVs and thats why they have relatively short suspension arms/links and at maximum travel they describe small radius arcs and limit wheel travel . Live axles aren't perfect but with a bit of serious engineering can result in very extreme articulation which enables them to keep their wheels on the ground over very uneven terrain .
When you can't do this you have to resort to diff locks etc and hope whats on the ground has enough adhesion to keep you moving .

Vehicles with anti roll bars never have good wheel travel/live axle articulation because the two are at opposites . An anti roll bar is a pass through device aimed at increasing roll stiffness and doing so limits travel/live axle articulation .

Road or rock hopping , take your pick because you cannot have it both ways without altering things .

Quick release pins on the rear sway bar is exactly what is been discussed here, maintaining on road capability and off-road setup. It has been done, and is simple to setup. Yes we may have less articulation than a solid axle vehicle with 4 point suspension front and rear, but our vehicles weight alot less. The independant suspension also gives excellent clearance on deep ruts on trails, with a set of 27" tyres we get the equivilent under-diff clearance of a solid axle vehicle with 31" or 33" tyres. Yet we get that clearance without the loss of gearing from such large tyres. Albeit our gearing is not as good in the first place. You are comparing an apple with an orange. Few of us actually rock hop. We do beach, trail, snow driving etc which does not necessarilly need a vehicle with huge articulation. We are in a forum discussing and comparing relative to our apples, and you come along and say its not as good as an orange. We already knew the relative limitations, and made informed decisions to buy a Subaru because they have other advantages. Try to make a solid axle 4WD as light as a Subaru, gain the same under diff clearance with 27" tyres, retain a fantastic drive system that functions well on and off-road, comfortable well handling suspension that gets you to safely to work 5 days a week and up a mountain on the weekend.

Its not that we don't like what you say. Its that you completely miss the point that we already know what you are talking about, have accepted the fact, we have moved on, and now HAPPYILY work within those limitations (e.g what is been discussed here). Then you come along and insult our intelligence by assuming we have missed the same fundamental point we have already accepted. That is what people don't like.

Cheers,
Rhys

Back to OP: good to see such a visual demonstration of what many of us already suspected. I think the quick release sway bar pins are a good idea and i'm also looking into doing this for my car aswell.

[Alex]

this is articulation

[tex]

this is articulation

Can they even see where their going!

[discopotato03]

If you feel insulted that's something you are going to have to deal with because as you said its known not to be my intent .
The reason why I type some of my epics is because often people are new and or can't be bothered searching or just plain can't find answers to their questions .
Very often with cars there is a sea or urban myths and people continue to change things thinking there isn't a downside or compromise . Not everyone is mechanically minded or looks at things from an engineering point of view . Not having some mechanical insight makes life hard because automotive engineering is not intuitive .
If I've seen it once I've seen it a million times , people change things without understanding what the manufacturer wanted from their vehicles std systems and rather than enhance what they have they fly blind and suffer the consequences . Manufacturers do everything for a reason and often they are compromised to comply with standards they have no say in .

My choice of the word rock hopping , vs road , was possibly not the best term to use because it gives the impression I mean literally rock hopping which is not the case .

Most of my personal experiences driving off road vehicles has been in heavy ones - trucks though I've had my fair share of times in older Landcruisers/Landrovers/Range Rovers and Patrols . Trucks have been Isuzus/Hinos/Bedfords/Freightliner/Thornycrofts/a Prototype Mastiff and a 6WD MAN so far .
Every single one of these had two or three live axles and two of the three six wheel drives had really good axle articulation , particularly the Leyland Mastiff . I don't claim to be an expert but I'm no novice either .
Been in black mud / peat bogs / sand / rock shelfs / washed out fire trails , forded water deep enough in the old Thornycroft that the headlights went under which is earie on a dark nigh in torrential rain . There is no doubt in my mind why Subaru tell you in there own red factory handbooks that these cars are designed to be all road and not all terrain .

Now have a close look at the rear "axle" on that Landcruiser , as the poster said that is articulation . You cannot have "axle articulation" on a vehicle with all independent suspension because there is nothing to keep either end pair of wheels on the same axis .

Anyway best of luck with your dual purpose cars , cheers A .

[El_Freddo]

this is articulation

Well done Alex, this too is articulation:

^ Subaru style

I know which one I'd rather be in.

Cheers

Bennie

[longy99gt]

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/phot ... =fbx_album

here's Articulation!

[Alex]

just showing ya what a solid axle can do compared to independant, thats all.

[AndrewT]

lol don't know why people are discussing vehicles with Live axles. While it's certainly relevant to a discussion about articulation in general, it's completely irrelevant to a discussion about articulation in SUBARUS!

That's like going onto a Landcruiser forum where they are discussing how to get better fuel economy out of landcruisers and posting a photo of a 2cyl moped. "THIS is good fuel economy!". Yeah very helpful haha. I'm sure they all know they can get better fuel economy from an entirely different vehicle, just like everyone on a Subaru forum knows you can get better articulation from a live axle vehicle.