ride height for newbies? fitting larger wheels

[cooloothin]

Hi all. Been away for a few weeks, hope you've been having fun while I was gone.

I am finally home with waggaclint's 14" 185/70s and I'm after some advice for fitting them. I'm completely new to this stuff so no response will be thought too obvious

My 84 sportswagon came with stock 155/55 13s, and is currently running 175/75 13s. These come in at 590mm or 23.2". The new wheel/tyres are 614.6mm or 24.2" so i need almost exactly half an inch each side.

Phizinza's site suggests an EA81 (80-84 wagon like mine) can fit up to 25" with no lift and no fender trimming. Not sure how those figures came about, but i presume it has to do with working the suspension a bit.

With my stock suspension, with mudflaps on, I can get about 135 degrees of steering wheel turn from vertical (power steering) before they hit (eg 135 deg right turn hits right edge of right wheel on flap).

The rear tyres look fine. The fronts rub with the mudflap on and just miss without it, on flat ground, unladen, half-lock.
Rears: 63mm (2.5") rear gap, 42mm (1.75") front gap.
Front: 40mm (1.5") rear gap, 51mm (2") front gap.

With the old wheels, on the front there was about 70mm (2.75") both gaps. Not sure how I lost .75" in front but 1.25" behind, but it could be a bit out because i measured with only the RHS wheel as larger (LHS had old).

On full lock there's enough room, but at half lock right there's only 6mm from the guard to the right edge of the right tyre.

I've always been aware that Subys could have their ride height adjusted by some bolts, but had never investigated it. I had a reasonable flick through the forums - the only info was more related to bigger tyres (26" +) and usually involved cars with 2"+ lift installed. Most people just suggested new suspension (usually kybs/kings).

The Gregory's manual provides information about the adjustment bolts for the front and rear, but to be honest they make it sound more like brain surgery than just carefully measuring and turning these bolts. Apparently i have the potential to wreak havoc on my wheel alignments, and I don't know much about camber/caster/toe in-out etc etc.

I've found the bits it points out on my car, as in pics here

So.. what do i do with them CAN i do anything with them? (in my position as a suspension-knowledge-poor person i mean) Does turning the rear nut clockwise make things go up or down? Obviously i'd mark with a nikko exactly where I was before i turn anything.

I presume I could get the height i'm after, though I guess that depends on exactly where they're sitting at the moment. The manual suggests EA81 ride height has 20mm of adjustment in the rear and 30mm of adjustment in the front. I've checked the current ride height:
rear - 335mm (spec 335 - 355)
front - about 262mm (spec 250 - 280)

Can I adjust these nuts to get the height I'm after and then take the car to an alignment place to get them to fix the rest, given the new height? Will an alignment place know what to do? I took the car to beaurepairs recently and asked for an all round alignment and balance, and when i picked the car up the receipt said 'electronic balance x 2, passenger side nudge x 1' .. all that says to a layman like me is that he didn't do what I asked for. I would have asked him to explain about the process if he'd been nice, but he was a gruff bloke and I decided i'd take my business elsewhere next time and try asking the next mob.

On a related note.. slightly different question: For various reasons i'm currently running 3 sizes of tyre.

I *did* have 175/75 on each front, and a 165/75 and 175/70 which are almost the same diameter, on the back.

When i got the car back from the alignment.. the dude had switched the backs for fronts..

Did he look at the sizes? i put the odd ones on the back because they freewheel... Now i have odd ones on the front.. (which will definitely be at least minimally different in diameter) am i about to screw up my driveshaft / cvs ? I *think* the bloke just didn't look... Please tell me he didn't swap them for a reason, so I can swap them back to something i figure is at least mostly safer for the car. the tyres have (as expected) uneven wear patterns but i don't know if that's from before the swap or after. I didn't think to check immediately, so the car has done 1500km on odd front tyres.

Thanks for any advice. sorry for the long post, it helped me to get my own research in one place..

Dave

[El_Freddo]

Hey Dave.

With the issue of the different diametre front tyres, your not going to break anything with this. The diff may be working a little more in a straight line. You'll really notice the binding when in 4wd wether they're on the front or the rear. Even with 4 tyres of the same diametre you'll still feel binding but running 3 same and 1 different will help bind the 4wd system.

As for your larger tyres you want to put on, my best suggestion would be a lift kit or guard trimming. That said i have not put a lift kit or larger tyres on my subi yet so someone else in the know will beable to set you straight on that one.

Hope this helps for starters.

Cheers

[Alex]

just do abit of guard trimming..much easier, if you do it right, you wont even know its been done!

alex

[Subafury]

actually u can fit almost 27" tyres on a stocko soob with minimal guard trimming. but for your new 14's remove the front mudflaps- see if this makes a difference and or smash the insides of the wheel well where they scrub with a bfh.
wheels that are different size shouldnt make a difference in cv angles/wear- yes a bit more binding in 4wd but usually you're in loose surface offroad anyway so it wont matter.

and about the adjustable struts- i thought only MY's had this feature with the 3 adjustable bolts on top the strut. is this right? EDIT: oops my bad it seems you do have an MY. but still am i right or wrong?

[90brumby]

i had 27inch tyres fitted to my brumby and that was b4 i had my lift kit so u can fit it big tyres with out lift kits but u have to do a lot of guard trimmin and then the tyres will still rub

tristan

[cooloothin]

Multi-quote madness...

your not going to break anything with this

that's what i wanted to hear thanks Bennie. I reassured myself with a bit of maths as well - there's only 2mm diff between a 165/75 and 175/70. Uneven tread wear will cover that no worries, so they're near enough to being the same tyre.

shouldnt make a difference in cv angles/wear

Also what i wanted to hear - means I can at least try a backyard numpty job and see how I go. I'm non-numpty enough to notice that something feels wrong if it is, so I should still be able to tell if I screw things up... though maybe not able to fix it. But that's when I'd go to a suspension bloke again.


Quick Question - what does everybody mean by 'binding' either in 4wd or out?


Regarding...

remove the front mudflaps

i noted...

The fronts rub with the mudflap on and just miss without it, on flat ground, unladen, half-lock.

specifically there's about 5mm between the metal and the tyre.. though that would be more after use of a BFH.

adjustable struts- i thought only MY's had this [...] but still am i right or wrong?

you're right, i think.. though it seems to be two bolts not 3. have another look at my setup at the link i gave here

90brumby, cheers for the advice. My tyres at 185 are just over an inch narrower than yours so I'm hoping I can get it so they don't rub.

Basically, they already don't rub - but they're so damn close to rubbing that i'm scared I'll chop a hole in one with a stray bit of metal.

Don't laugh, i actually did this once coming down the bruce highway past caboolture. I'd just hit the 100km down from 110, luckily was in the left lane with nobody behind me, and a rusty front guard support strip about 10mm wide and 150mm long came away from the chassis end, wrapped backward towards the tyre and sliced it clean open, which then flayed around my guard a few times as i emergency braked and pulled over. Good times


Anyway. Hooray for friday. I'll have a closer look at the bolts on the front struts tomorrow.. they look pretty rusty but i might be able to move them. As noted above I think I'll be able to get around 15mm of rise out of them, which could be enough, especially if coupled with a bit of selective BFH.

Thanks for all the advice, i'll post with how i go.

[El_Freddo]

Multi-quote madness...
Quick Question - what does everybody mean by 'binding' either in 4wd or out?

Great effort on the mulit quote madness, well done.

The 'binding' you expereince when 4wding (only happens in 4wd) is from the front and rear wheels being "locked" together so there is no difference in how far the gearbox is trying to push the front and rear diffs (ie is pushing them the same distance regardless of cornering).
So when you drive around a corner in 4wd the front wheels have to travel further than the rear. This is what the binding is all about. As a driver you will feel the drivetrain tighten up particularly when cornering if you don't have powersteering (like me). Any dodgy CVs should start complaining at this point. On a loose surface or when coming into mud/slippery surface you might notice one wheel spins for a little bit, this is the drivetrain releasing the tension or 'bind' in the system.
Never attempt a U turn in low 4wd. The binding apparently will break something in the gearbox, think it might be the low range gear itself. I've never broken anything yet i've never done a U turn in low 4wd on some good advice of one of the board members ages ago. Always do at least a 3 point turn. Try it out and you'll feel the binding.

Hope i havn't made it more complicated than it really is... I've just tried to explain it all at once rather than in bits and pieces.

Cheers

[D3V1L]

woah!!! what a novel u wrote just to ask whats the biggest tyres u can fit in the guards


dave

[cooloothin]

not at all dave, what the biggest tyre might be doesn't bother me I was just after advice regarding the MY height adjustment bolts as I haven't seen anybody comment on these at all.

anyhoo, the suby is in the garage and the other half has gone awol for the next 12 hours, so i'm free to start hacking. will post up with how i go so the next 'me' has an idea..

El_Freddo - thanks for the binding description, i was pretty sure that's what people meant but needed confirmation. Re: my other post about the lever sticking - bit confused about the binding i could be getting there as especially the first time it happened, i was on sand! surely thats heaps enough for the front/rear slip to occur. ah well.

[D3V1L]

heehheeh...i was being a tad smartass there i saw the first few lines about tyres and didnt bother reading the rest..heheh...mmy bad

it is an interresting question u make as well

dave

[Matatak]

with the bolts at the front all i no is that you have to wind each one up the same as the other and just keep measuring till u get wt clearance you need but i couldnt say anything bout the backs..
and i would imagine youd need a wheel alignment after that

also wouldnt the book be sayin that to get the same specs as they are mentioning and that youd need stock wheels on and not like 2 different sizes (due to tread wear or nethign liek that) on the front

[cooloothin]

heehheeh...

all good... you're right anyway.. i did kinda write a book. just wanted to cover as many questions from my intended helpers as possible before they got asked.

and then of course i got the wheels off this arvo and discovered the bolts are about an inch.. no spanners that big and my only shifter was in the missus' car tomorrow maybe...

matatak - the diff diameter wheels are a whole different issue... the ride height is something i'm trying for a set of 4x14" near new all matching.

and yeah i'll worry bout the rub first and a wheel alignment afterwards i figure it will change, even if only slightly.

[90brumby]

the spanner size is 21 mm to be exact but that is a tight fit so wat i did was used the 21mm until it was farily looses and then used a 22mm which was alright to finish the job

my wheel aligment was stiil ok after i did this (and when i fitted the lift kit) but would still recommend that u get it done

[cooloothin]

spot on 90brumby... 21mm it was and i ended up having to go spend $28 on a sidchrome 21mm spanner at bunnings because nobody i knew had one, a shifter was too thick to fit between the metal plates (the nuts were at their lowest point) and all the shifters in bunnings were too thick, and no cheapo spanner sets had 21mm in them... so it was that or spend $70 on a still-quite-el-cheapo large toolkit just to get the 21mm !

ah well. I shall pass this gleaming king of spanners on to my grandkids.

so now the nuts are all neatly rotated exactly 8 full turns up.. and I've gained at least 12mm of ride height

hooray.

and the closest rub point, is now.. exactly as far away as it was before.. about 5mm.

booo.

so I loaded the car up with whatever i could find.. the 4 tyres i took off, a huge punching bag, some stuff on the roof racks, my other half.. then tested the lock-to-lock again.. dropped it even closer to about 2mm.

I'm just too worried about rubber on metal to live with that, so if i want to keep the wheels it looks like i have to bow to what everyone has said and not just trim the guards, but bash back the ridge of metal behind the plastic wheel-well moulding to get it flattish against the chassis at the bottom.

looks like it'll be next weekend.

[howie]

just got scorpion 14" rims (thanks Allan, in Brisbane), spent the afternoon at the local Bridgestone centre, best fit with no possibility of rubbing 185/65R14.
hope that helps. Howie

[Matatak]

so now the nuts are all neatly rotated exactly 8 full turns up.. and I've gained at least 12mm of ride height

so are you getting a wheel alignment now?

im thinkin i should do the same but how did you count exactly 8 turns? i was looking at mine and i didnt think you could rotate it even half a turn in one go so it would be a guessing game..

and did you do the rears?

[cooloothin]

howie.. cheers for the info mate.. your wheel+tyre combo will be about 18mm shorter from floor to top than mine (185/75)... so 9mm either side and that would bring my closest-point out to 11mm with a fully loaded car.. which i reckon i'd probably be happy with. Your wheels may also have a different offset to mine, i have no idea regarding this. My old man joking suggested I get 8 hard-core washers and slip one over each wheel nut before i put the wheels on. Half of me thinks that would work great, the other half thinks its just asking for trouble. [EDIT] - howie, just noticed you mention a 92 GL in your wheels/tyres section post, i've got an MY and i'm pretty sure the whole car is just that little bit smaller

yes i have considered just buying lower profile tyres but that defeats the cheap price i got these wheel/tyres for as I'd have to sell the tyres i have to somebody in perth to have cash to eat, and that means another 900km round trip.

So i keep what i have and smile and make it work

Matatak, didn't do the rears at all (they have 45mm), so the suby is now a lot more level than it ever was have driven it a few times this week and it feels fine.. I will only consider the alignment again after I have sorted the new wheel/tyres fitting.

They fit pretty well otherwise..


top down view of the rear tyre using a broomstick to check

It's this that I'll have to use a bfh to fix..


as for the nuts.. this is afterwards. They started flush with the bottom.

it's pretty hard to see from the camera flash, but i moved the nuts slightly till i had one neat face staring at me on each.. then scored that face with something sharp.. a diagonal scratch across it. Then with the space i had it was about 6 mini-turns to bring that scratch to the front, and you just count the number of times you see it. When I got to 8, i could still just feel a bit of thread on the top of the bolt with my fingernail stuck through the spring coil.. i decided not to go any further even though you probably can. I reckon it's got at least another 5mm in it beyond what i did.

yay for digital.. this is the nut top with plenty of thread to spare (for those like me who have never removed a strut before and thus never seen this stuff)


The end result that still needs work... The nut you can see just holds on the plastic wheel-well liner. It's a 10mm nut, and that's the closest point, at half lock, fully laden.

what it's come down to. A mate has suggested using an oxy to warm up the pressed-plate bit before it gets bashed so it bends a bit neater..


And lastly the old girl looking tough with 4 big shoes on.. (even if they don't fit yet) the reason to go to all this effort



Thanks for advice and interest from all. BFH should happen saturday.

Dave

[90brumby]

can i ask y u didnt wind the nuts all the way up

[cooloothin]

mainly because I wasn't sure exactly how far i could go, and because with them well over half-way up I tested the rub-gap and it hadn't changed a single millimetre.... and i'm not really raising it for the height (that's a bonus), the intention was purely to find a way to solve the close rub-gap situation.

The ride-height nuts didn't solve it (and i doubt going another 5mm would make any difference) so I'll move on to the next option....

[90brumby]

ahh ok mine went up a hell of a lot urs look about half way up but yer they stilll required a lot of trimmin with the hammer