Hi all, i'm looking to replace the front struts in my brumby, the old struts have had it and i'm keen to put something a bit better in there.
This thread will serve as a bit a reference, for anyone else looking to do anything similar.
My brumby has been lifted 3" and has 195 r14 maxxis mudders on it, complete with the undesireable positive camber on the front wheels. Part of my goal with this project is to fit a smaller diameter spring and seat to allow more clearance at the top of the tower and allow the strut top to move in closer to the engine allowing neutral or slightly negative camber, without sacrificing ground clearance or suspension travel.
My plan is to replace the strut with a similar strut that ultimately has longer travel, at the moment my hopes are pinned on peugeot 405 struts. The front suspension in the 405 is very similar to a brumby, and the overall damper dimensions about bang on for what i want (more travel with the same sized body)
Brumby struts.
Body length: 365mm
Compressed length: 368mm
Extended length: 524mm
Travel: 155mm
405 struts.
Body length: 368mm
Compressed length: 381mm
Extended length: 584mm
Travel: 203mm
(all sizes from Mr Monroe's book of words.)
I need to confirm the diameter of the clamped section at the bottom of the strut, but so far it looks like they will work.
Front strut upgrade/project - Brumby.
Part 2: Springs.
I've broken the posts up so that it's not TL/DR.
For springs i want to run as smaller diameter as i can, whilst also using a spring that is further into it's travel at static ride height, this should allow more negative travel (coupled with the longer travel of the peugeot struts)
A consequence of using a different spring is that i will need a differnet perch, and i can specify the spring rate that i want.
The peugeot strut has a perch welded onto it similar to the later brumby struts (the current ones i have are early brumby with the bolts to adjust height) i intend to cut the existing perch off the new strut, leaving just a small lip that will essentially be the weld, a fricton fit perch will then slide down the strut and bear on the lip/weld. I have sourced perches from an EG honda civic, this will lower the bottom spring perch 40mm over the stock brumby position allowing a longer spring to be used. (this of course assumes that the OE peugeot perch is in a similar position to the OE brumby perch) The honda perch is designed for an 85mm OD spring. The spring that i intend to use is yet to be finalised, i initially looked at using the front springs from either an EG (145 lbs) or EF (174 lbs) civic but i think both of these are too stiff for what i'm hoping to accomplish. (stock brumby rate is somewhere around 130 lbs, but stock brumby also has a front sway bar, mine does not)
Rear civic springs, and rear toyota starlet springs are looking closer to what i'm after, but i will need to make some more measurements to confirm. I think that what i'd like to find is a spring with free length of around 350mm and a rate of between 110 - 130 lbs.
Input/thoughts/observations welcomed, criticisms tolerated.
Cheers, Dan
For springs i want to run as smaller diameter as i can, whilst also using a spring that is further into it's travel at static ride height, this should allow more negative travel (coupled with the longer travel of the peugeot struts)
A consequence of using a different spring is that i will need a differnet perch, and i can specify the spring rate that i want.
The peugeot strut has a perch welded onto it similar to the later brumby struts (the current ones i have are early brumby with the bolts to adjust height) i intend to cut the existing perch off the new strut, leaving just a small lip that will essentially be the weld, a fricton fit perch will then slide down the strut and bear on the lip/weld. I have sourced perches from an EG honda civic, this will lower the bottom spring perch 40mm over the stock brumby position allowing a longer spring to be used. (this of course assumes that the OE peugeot perch is in a similar position to the OE brumby perch) The honda perch is designed for an 85mm OD spring. The spring that i intend to use is yet to be finalised, i initially looked at using the front springs from either an EG (145 lbs) or EF (174 lbs) civic but i think both of these are too stiff for what i'm hoping to accomplish. (stock brumby rate is somewhere around 130 lbs, but stock brumby also has a front sway bar, mine does not)
Rear civic springs, and rear toyota starlet springs are looking closer to what i'm after, but i will need to make some more measurements to confirm. I think that what i'd like to find is a spring with free length of around 350mm and a rate of between 110 - 130 lbs.
Input/thoughts/observations welcomed, criticisms tolerated.
Cheers, Dan
So, good news bad news,
The ef honda font springs are lighter rate than i though, they're not as thick as i though, so i have one for shits and giggles to try some things with.
Unfortunately 405 struts although dimensionally close in terms of travel etc, are completely the wrong design, so i'm now looking for other options that might come close to working, as a last resort i will have strut bodies made to suit that will take whatever size strut insert i want.
The ef honda font springs are lighter rate than i though, they're not as thick as i though, so i have one for shits and giggles to try some things with.
Unfortunately 405 struts although dimensionally close in terms of travel etc, are completely the wrong design, so i'm now looking for other options that might come close to working, as a last resort i will have strut bodies made to suit that will take whatever size strut insert i want.
I have read you whole post, as i don't have time now, but Steve from Rising Sun Subaru makes up customs Brumby Struts. They have 3" of extra travel, custom rate springs and are the same base top hate as normal.
"Bianca"
'86 Brumby - Dual Port Heads, 5 Speed Dual Range, Custom Cam, Tuned Weber, Tuned Suspension, 2" Body Lift Kit, LSD, 14" rims, 2.25" Exhaust, Snorkel, Dual Batteries, DVD Player, UHF, VHF, etc. Offically now part of the 350, 000 km Club!
And still pulling like a freight train.
"Claudia"
82 MY Wagon - EA81T, RS Liberty WIAC, 5 Speed Dual Range, Tuned Suspension, 14" Rims 27" Tyres, 2" Body Lift Kit, Apline Head unit, UHF, Roof Console, L Series seats, Soon to have New Paint, snorkel, Dual batteries, etc
'86 Brumby - Dual Port Heads, 5 Speed Dual Range, Custom Cam, Tuned Weber, Tuned Suspension, 2" Body Lift Kit, LSD, 14" rims, 2.25" Exhaust, Snorkel, Dual Batteries, DVD Player, UHF, VHF, etc. Offically now part of the 350, 000 km Club!
And still pulling like a freight train. 
"Claudia"
82 MY Wagon - EA81T, RS Liberty WIAC, 5 Speed Dual Range, Tuned Suspension, 14" Rims 27" Tyres, 2" Body Lift Kit, Apline Head unit, UHF, Roof Console, L Series seats, Soon to have New Paint, snorkel, Dual batteries, etc
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discopotato03
- Senior Member
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- Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:29 am
- Location: Sydney
The problem with these things is their short control arm length , because short arms scribe a considerable arc you can't stop the effective camber change with std let alone increased travel .
Some people fabricate or make longer control arms by cutting and shutting two sets of arms ie rejoin the longest halves , this can restore the std still woeful camber angle a Brumby has at the modified ride height because it restores the std track width .
If you seriously want to make the thing work half right you will need power steering because good geometry in these cars and L's means heavy steering without it . Standard they both come with negative caster and positive camber and together with soft springs and undersized anti roll bars handle terribly .
My finding with these old Roo's is that changing the front caster back towards neutral or even slightly positive if you can achieve it gives much better front grip and turn in . You are on the right track with smaller diameter springs because you have more room to move the strut tops around in reasonably compact strut towers . Need adjustable strut tops though .
Also need to increase roll stiffness to stop the roll camber/caster angles going from bad to worse . Doing this is counter to what you want with increased travel off the road and you can't have it both ways .
Ideally the rear torsion bars don't cut it and its not hard to see why L's went to a coil over style strut and ideally a rear anti roll bar in the better ones . Sounds like a lot of fabrication in a Brumby which is fine if you have or know someone with the necessary skill set .
A .
Some people fabricate or make longer control arms by cutting and shutting two sets of arms ie rejoin the longest halves , this can restore the std still woeful camber angle a Brumby has at the modified ride height because it restores the std track width .
If you seriously want to make the thing work half right you will need power steering because good geometry in these cars and L's means heavy steering without it . Standard they both come with negative caster and positive camber and together with soft springs and undersized anti roll bars handle terribly .
My finding with these old Roo's is that changing the front caster back towards neutral or even slightly positive if you can achieve it gives much better front grip and turn in . You are on the right track with smaller diameter springs because you have more room to move the strut tops around in reasonably compact strut towers . Need adjustable strut tops though .
Also need to increase roll stiffness to stop the roll camber/caster angles going from bad to worse . Doing this is counter to what you want with increased travel off the road and you can't have it both ways .
Ideally the rear torsion bars don't cut it and its not hard to see why L's went to a coil over style strut and ideally a rear anti roll bar in the better ones . Sounds like a lot of fabrication in a Brumby which is fine if you have or know someone with the necessary skill set .
A .
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brumbyrunner
- General Member
- Posts: 1743
- Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:00 am
- Location: SEQ
One of the advantages of a Crossbred 5 stud conversion is the use of Liberty/Impreza front struts. There's a range of aftermarket coilovers to choose from which give you the smaller diameter coil springs you're after and an easily adjustable ride height. Camber change can then be achieved at the bottom of the strut additionally to both camber and caster adjustment at the strut top if you desire.
Settlement Creek Racing
unfortunately the aftermarket coilovers all seem to be for lowering purposes. I haven't been able to find any that are at least standard height, or better yet, raised. (Raised for a Forrie would be ideal) Feel free to prove me wrong. Also the range of adjustable strut tops seems to be quite limited too. The only ones that I can find that seem suitable are the whitelines for a GD Impreza. As far as I can tell, they will fit all models, but are only listed for GD on.
May I suggest something like this.
http://www.otomoto.com.au/HDSystems/sleeves.jpg
Weld onto the existing brumby struts and use a longer insert (I think series 1 rx7 fits and is about 3" longer) Once you have coilovers there is a huge range of springs available or you could even run double springs.
For a cheap strut top you could just use a steel plate and weld in a spherical bearing to mount the strut where you want it.
http://www.mcgillmotorsports.co.uk/inde ... t&catId=37
A forester strut and 5 stud would be a better place to start though as it uses a longer control arm and cv which allows better wheel travel.
http://www.otomoto.com.au/HDSystems/sleeves.jpg
Weld onto the existing brumby struts and use a longer insert (I think series 1 rx7 fits and is about 3" longer) Once you have coilovers there is a huge range of springs available or you could even run double springs.
For a cheap strut top you could just use a steel plate and weld in a spherical bearing to mount the strut where you want it.
http://www.mcgillmotorsports.co.uk/inde ... t&catId=37
A forester strut and 5 stud would be a better place to start though as it uses a longer control arm and cv which allows better wheel travel.
There is plenty of standard height stuff around (assuming you are referring to Lib/Impreza). Look at what the rally cars are using - DMS, Proflex, MCA, Bilstien etc.Point wrote:unfortunately the aftermarket coilovers all seem to be for lowering purposes. I haven't been able to find any that are at least standard height, or better yet, raised. (Raised for a Forrie would be ideal) Feel free to prove me wrong. Also the range of adjustable strut tops seems to be quite limited too. The only ones that I can find that seem suitable are the whitelines for a GD Impreza. As far as I can tell, they will fit all models, but are only listed for GD on.
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sven '2'
- General Member
- Posts: 1357
- Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:45 pm
- Location: Adelaide, South Australia
+1 for Rising SunMatt wrote:I have read you whole post, as i don't have time now, but Steve from Rising Sun Subaru makes up customs Brumby Struts. They have 3" of extra travel, custom rate springs and are the same base top hate as normal.
This enough travel / what you are seeking??
I have spent some time in this Brumby - suspension was AMAZING.
73 Yamaha DT3 250
08 Ford BF wagon - LPG FTMFW
14 Toyota Kluger - goodness!
08 Ford BF wagon - LPG FTMFW
14 Toyota Kluger - goodness!
Thanks for all the replies.
For what i want there will always be a compromise, i should probably add some information about my brumby at this point, it is lifted 3" at the crossmember and front struts (2" gearbox/radius arms) i am not running a sway bar at the moment, which i think is the reason for the strange suspension behaviour (topping out the struts easily) I have an ej PS rack in there as well.
I have been rethinking a few things and i am looking now towards gutting the struts and running a longer insert (assuming this can be easily done with the struts i have) with smaller longer springs. From there i will look to lengthen the radius/compression rods, and hopefully correct the caster a little bit, camber i will leave as stock for the time being, maybe later on when i can find some l series driveshafts i will look to lengthn the bottom arms and correct the camber too.
For what i want there will always be a compromise, i should probably add some information about my brumby at this point, it is lifted 3" at the crossmember and front struts (2" gearbox/radius arms) i am not running a sway bar at the moment, which i think is the reason for the strange suspension behaviour (topping out the struts easily) I have an ej PS rack in there as well.
I have been rethinking a few things and i am looking now towards gutting the struts and running a longer insert (assuming this can be easily done with the struts i have) with smaller longer springs. From there i will look to lengthen the radius/compression rods, and hopefully correct the caster a little bit, camber i will leave as stock for the time being, maybe later on when i can find some l series driveshafts i will look to lengthn the bottom arms and correct the camber too.
Righto update time,
After a pretty fruitless search for a complete strut from another vehicle, i have decided to build my own.
The plan is to grab a pair of GTB legacy (JDM yo) rear struts, remove the mounts off the bottom of the strut tube, and then cut the strut body to the length i need, then i will machine a reducing bush that the strut body will slip into, and which in turn will slip into the standard brumby knuckle. The bilsteins are an upside down cartidge and have a total travel of 8".
Onto the strut body i will weld a spring perch for a 60mm coilover type spring, probably 350mm long and a close to stock spring rate. The whole thing will be a couple of inches longer than the stock strut, but will (hopefully) be the same length when the weight of the brumby is on it.
I will post some pictures tomorrow to show what i am doing.
After a pretty fruitless search for a complete strut from another vehicle, i have decided to build my own.
The plan is to grab a pair of GTB legacy (JDM yo) rear struts, remove the mounts off the bottom of the strut tube, and then cut the strut body to the length i need, then i will machine a reducing bush that the strut body will slip into, and which in turn will slip into the standard brumby knuckle. The bilsteins are an upside down cartidge and have a total travel of 8".
Onto the strut body i will weld a spring perch for a 60mm coilover type spring, probably 350mm long and a close to stock spring rate. The whole thing will be a couple of inches longer than the stock strut, but will (hopefully) be the same length when the weight of the brumby is on it.
I will post some pictures tomorrow to show what i am doing.
Right so things have gone on hold a little bit what with everything happening over here at the moment.
Anyway after much measuring and thinking i have come up with the following scheme:
-e30 bmw strut legs, remove hub and shorten as required (approx 50mm at this stage) add spring perch for 65mm ID race springs
-81-84 toyota starlet inserts (215mm total travel) in to bmw legs.
-bearing plate from tein strut tops mounted to custom plate welded into brumby tower (this bit may change depending on how much room i have) this will allow me to get slightly more negative camber, but more importantly correct the terrible caster.
-350mm race spring 150lbs/in.
The whole lot will come together with 25mm preload on the springs (about 40kg) and will sink 75mm with the weight of the brumby (negative travel), which will leave about 100mm of travel until the bumpstops are hit, (stock is 90mm preload, 40mm negative travel, and about 65mm until the bumpstops come into play. The spring rate is such that the same size impact will compress the new suspension approximately the same amount as it would on the old suspsension, but still have another 40 odd mm of travel until it hits the bump stops. (I still need to ensure that the cvs will handle this extra travel, at this stage it looks like they will.)
I will update as all the bits come together.
Anyway after much measuring and thinking i have come up with the following scheme:
-e30 bmw strut legs, remove hub and shorten as required (approx 50mm at this stage) add spring perch for 65mm ID race springs
-81-84 toyota starlet inserts (215mm total travel) in to bmw legs.
-bearing plate from tein strut tops mounted to custom plate welded into brumby tower (this bit may change depending on how much room i have) this will allow me to get slightly more negative camber, but more importantly correct the terrible caster.
-350mm race spring 150lbs/in.
The whole lot will come together with 25mm preload on the springs (about 40kg) and will sink 75mm with the weight of the brumby (negative travel), which will leave about 100mm of travel until the bumpstops are hit, (stock is 90mm preload, 40mm negative travel, and about 65mm until the bumpstops come into play. The spring rate is such that the same size impact will compress the new suspension approximately the same amount as it would on the old suspsension, but still have another 40 odd mm of travel until it hits the bump stops. (I still need to ensure that the cvs will handle this extra travel, at this stage it looks like they will.)
I will update as all the bits come together.
