how does this new-fangled 'push button start/stop work'?

nncoolg · Post by **nncoolg** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:37 am

I may seem behind the times but I have been wondering after continually seeing the ads on TV...How does the circuit work?
Does the button just replace the last position on the key, meaning you would have to hold it to crank the engine and release it when it started?

On the ads it looks like a momentary press to start and I cant get my head around a circuit knowing when to stop cranking...

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:58 am

wiki ? google?

I just take these new developments in my stride - ignore.....

Noticed how many newish cars like the FG falcons, as you turn key to CRANK position you can release the key from its position and starter continues to crank until engine is running ? Must just be an extension of that - all built into the ECU or another CU somewhere, sensing you've stopped and will be for a little while - shoot - have the manufacturers driven in some Sydney traffic ? - as long as it all thinks and acts faster than human brain we'll survive dashes in front of Discos colleagues ...TOOT

It would be a simple circuit surely, just like the LPG safety switches use a single wire to coil to sense things. They alllow a few seconds prime before switching off until engine is running.

Listen to an FG and it does sound like it is just a second or two over run on start - to me anyway

Gannon · Post by **Gannon** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:44 am

They are usually designed so that you dont have to have the key in the ignition at all. The car can tell when the key is inside the car (even if still in your pocket)

As soon as you press the start button, the ignition is automatically turned on and the engine starts.

nncoolg · Post by **nncoolg** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:46 am

yeah, so you just push it momentarily?

how does it know the car has started to stop cranking?

niterida · Post by **niterida** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:10 am

They are an abomination and should be outlawed.

But yes they are a momentary push and they will keep goping until it fires or if it doesn't fire within a certain time it will stop trying.

We have a Prado as a wrok car with it and it is so frustrating. You can't decide what setting you want it on - as in the old fashioned Lock, On, Acc and Start.
Basically with the Prado if you push the button with your foot off the brake it goes to Accessories. Push it again and it goes to On. Push it again and goes to Off.
If you have your foot on the brake and it is in the Off position and you press it just once it goes all the way to Start.
And when it is running and you are in Park or Neutral and in the On position if you push it once it goes all the way to Off - so if you want to keep listening to the radio or keep the fans goin etc then you have to make sure your foot is off the brake and you have to press it again.
And if you are driving along and want to turn the engine off you just can't - it won't let you !!!!!!!

I hate this with a passion. Actually I hate the whole car - absolutely and positively THE worse car I have EVER driven - seats are like slabs of concrete with no support or comfort whatsoever, brakes are either off or on, electric power steering is so light you can't keep the car in a straight line on the highway, throttle pedal has no feel and no response so you find your speed varying wildly without even realising it - can't even crawl along at slow speed and hold a steady throttle - it still lurches and bucks because the electonic throttle picks up the tiniest movement of your foot (I spend majority of the time at under 15kmh). And the other day I nearly had an accident when I went to pull out in traffic and cos I didn't have any feel through the throttle I thought I had given it enough but it hardly moved - I pushed harder and harder but it stillhardly moved and then the ECU must have realised I wanted to accelearate and it took off like a bloody bat out of hell I nearly neded up on the wrong side of the road. If thats what all new cars are like I'll stick with my old one thanks.

end rant

Gannon · Post by **Gannon** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:51 am

So what happens when ya throttle sticks or the floor mat gets stuck over the accelerator?

I remember when the knock sensor wire got tangled in the throttle in my EA82T wagon, it took me by surprise as I got closer to an intersection that I wasnt slowing down and and after applying the brakes, I realised what was going on. Turning off the ignition is the only way to stop

Post by **TOONGA** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:00 am

there is a pixie with a whip next to a hampster in leather, who has a little cattle prod...

these ignitions are either ECU controled or have a Single Pole Double Throw Relay (or in theory both) that controls the amount of time the circuit is closed for. which in turn engages the starter motor for a set period of time. when the engine starts, a signal from the starter is sent to the ecu or relay (or both) and the circuit is broken causing the starter to disengage.

In theory (dispute anything I just put forward apart from the pixie and the hampster)

TOONGA

Post by **TOONGA** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:08 am

Gannon wrote:So what happens when ya throttle sticks or the floor mat gets stuck over the accelerator?

Toyota moving forward ... unintentionally

TOONGA

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:01 pm

So, you missed the Top Gear episode - and the repeats of it - where the gang went inside a diner for dinner and one smart alec decides because the keys are within frequency he'd just get his big frame inside the opponents unlocked car, start her up by push button and drive it away down the road to where frequency dropped out - so too did all controls

niterida · Post by **niterida** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:16 pm

steptoe wrote:So, you missed the Top Gear episode - and the repeats of it - where the gang went inside a diner for dinner and one smart alec decides because the keys are within frequency he'd just get his big frame inside the opponents unlocked car, start her up by push button and drive it away down the road to where frequency dropped out - so too did all controls

Think they might have cheated on that one - the Toyota keyless system doesn't work any more than about 2m from the car.

Other makes / earlier versions may have had more range but it wouldn't make any sense for the manufacturers to give them too much range.

niterida · Post by **niterida** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:00 pm

I just checked and you can't turn the engine off unless you are in PARK - so if you have an engine fire and want to kill the fuel pump - good luck !!

Brumby Kid · Post by **Brumby Kid** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:55 pm

That is a stupid system!
I remember my dad saying once that when he was young his Aunty had a push button start. (This makes the car atleast 1950's or earlier).
How would this have worked? would you be holding it down untill it cranked? (not like the new ones).
My grandfather has a toyota 4wd with this, it works well but you need the key in your pocket.

Cheers Cam

nncoolg · Post by **nncoolg** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:01 pm

maybe she had a car from the future...

Gannon · Post by **Gannon** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:20 pm

steptoe wrote:start her up by push button and drive it away down the road to where frequency dropped out - so too did all controls

Yeah I saw it

So if the accelerator pedal stuck at full throttle, do I just throw the keys out the window???

Brumby Kid wrote: I remember my dad saying once that when he was young his Aunty had a push button start. (This makes the car atleast 1950's or earlier).
How would this have worked? would you be holding it down untill it cranked?

We had a tractor like that, but it had no ignition switch. Simply push the start button to start it, and pull the fuel cut lever to stop.

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:26 pm

I mis-read Nevilles question and rattled on about the stop/start fuel saving methods now being used by some makers. Let's not confuse either of oursleves eh !

Matt · Post by **Matt** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:42 pm

Gannon wrote:Yeah I saw it

So if the accelerator pedal stuck at full throttle, do I just throw the keys out the window???

We had a tractor like that, but it had no ignition switch. Simply push the start button to start it, and pull the fuel cut lever to stop.

Sounds like a Massey Ferguson Tractor... :P Bahahaha

niterida · Post by **niterida** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:55 pm

Gannon wrote:So if the accelerator pedal stuck at full throttle, do I just throw the keys out the window???

No - it will just keep going. But once it does stop you won't be able to restart it.

Which makes it a problem if you have the key in your pocket and let someone else drive away - they won't be able to start it again if they stop

Gannon · Post by **Gannon** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:23 pm

It was actually a ZETOR, but the little old Fergie isnt much different.

Brumby Kid · Post by **Brumby Kid** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:14 pm

It was a 1958 Humber

YouTube · Post by **El_Freddo** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:46 am

Brumby Kid wrote:That is a stupid system!
I remember my dad saying once that when he was young his Aunty had a push button start. (This makes the car atleast 1950's or earlier).
How would this have worked? would you be holding it down untill it cranked? (not like the new ones).

Just like the early mini's - you need the key in the ignition in the "on" position, then push the button for the starter rather than turn the key another notch for the starter.

So you'd hold this button down until the car starts. In recent years they started doing the same thing again for a gimmick or nostalgia...

I don't like the new system with the key in the pocket trick, foot on the brake to start the car and also take it out of park... Then there's the electric handbrake which is a "lever switch" on the dash - it's the same movement for engage and disengage from memory.

To turn the car off you simply hit the start button again when in park, I can't remember if you need your foot on the brake pedal or not... It's a shit idea that should be canned IMO.

Cheers

Bennie