EA82T intermittent miss #2, common ?

discopotato03 · Post by **discopotato03** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:16 am

The pintle cap is there to protect the pintle valve tip which is proud of the steel injector body . It probably also gives some heat insulation as well .

Sequential vs batch fire . Sequential will always give better results provided the injector valve is large enough to do the job and the computer AND tuning is up to the task .
The reason being that with sequential you can have control over injection timing ie when in the 720 deg cycle (four stroke so two complete revolutions of the crank) the injector closes . It doesn't innitially sound right but its the injector closed timing that is critical to drivability/consumption/emissions .
With batch fire the injection timing is all over the place in relation to inlet valve events so accurate mixture control is at times impossible .
Years ago I tuned a Nissan FJ20 turbo engine that was run with a sequential Autronic engine management system (and 550cc injectors) , and moving the injection timing around made very noticable differences to how it ran . Many people assume that having the inlet valve and injector valve open at the same time is a good thing but I could never get that to work AFR wise so I chased best mean torque AFR/ign timing/injector timing . I will agree that sequentially controlled injectors have to get it all in in one go but if people leave the FPR ALONE and use an adequate pump/s and injectors its no issue . Todays modern ECU's (the good ones) have very accurate control over properly specced injectors and getting large ones opened and closed smartly is easy .

With the EJ turbo engines the major limitations are chiefly caused by the hopeless single tube header / up pipe and single scroll turbine housing though Subaru are now using on some models a propper split pulsed twin scroll system . The more you can make any piston engine run with sequential systems the better the results will be , makes them run more like highly efficient single cylinders sequentially joined together .

Cheers A .

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:04 pm

Got the injectors back after a... a WEEK !? Felt longer Brett, mate, but doing two sets was a good idea. Didn't get them tested for volume consistency as he had no rail set up to take this style.(something for me to tackle) Report is that my spare set was dirtier than what was in the car, and that's where the swapees were coming from - similar running results. So, tomorrow if it is fine and warm...got a new fuel filter too.

fingers xxx'd

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:42 pm

why didn't I try this before ?????

everything was hooked up ready to try....

what am i yacking on about ??

I have fitted my cleaned injectors and found that .. so far... the intermittent miss is not present. Tomorrow could be another thing.

I figured it was time to take Project Cheap Grief for its blue slip (only valid reason to have an unregistered car on the public roads) but had to turn back as it is still not running well enough to make sure i get there and back without a tow truck. DING the fuel pressure gauge is still hooked up (with non efi line

) and it is long nuff to tape on windscreen to watch what pressures do as i drive and F*%#@ BINGO !! Under road load and worse - up hills the pressure drops right off as I lose power - or vice versa. Welcome to Jono's Dyno Service. That fuel pump is getting noisey and took a hefty blow with power attached to get it going this morn. It does give good pressures through the revs with no load- that's the difference !! i hope !

Matatak · Post by **Matatak** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 11:04 am

hmmm so new fuel pump time.
get one in and let us know how it goes

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:35 pm

Goss part number GE030 about $260 listed for turbo subies and not got the damper and has a rated presure of 95psi !! on it

then there is the VL turbo and n/a bosch brand part number 0580464070 is about $160

I can get the above sent from sydney diff brand for less than $100 trade...then it's rego and insurance time

checkin' out used prices soon

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:47 pm

Got the fuel pump with no damper on it, VL 12mm inlet, 8mm outlet. BTW a JD Camira efi mpfi damper (sep unit) is about 120 bucks from Holden, so forget that.

Cleaned out tank with pressure washer, water with some hydrochloric acid (THAT'S why my hands feel burnt!) added to it, sloshed around and rinsedx3 with carb soda to neutralise acid, rinse x3, blew fuel lines clear, no blockages anyway. Hooked her up and juiced her with PULP, FMD that little miss is still present, BUT she goes !!! The fuel pressure drop experienced on the road, but not in the shed HAS GONE !!!! The pump is quiet - bee-utiful !!

I will resuurect this thread when i go chasing the miss. I did however find that I FORGOT to hook up vac advance line to other than atmo - so maybe just maybe

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:09 am

I feel much older after comng in to reread this

At this stage, nearly a year later, I have renewed Hydraulic Valve lash Adjusters on the troubled LHS and yet to test out whether this will fix it. If not it will be down to SCOOBIDOO's theory (and a valid one too ) that it sounds like weak valve springs allowing HVLA to over power it holding valve open. I will be rather displeased if he is correct due to heads being done prior to problem occuring, but I did find all four HVLA's quite stiff, full of oil, one not even compress in the vice ! Pull another apart and find on clean out and reassembly it sprung up and down freely without oil. All newies went in full of oll and hard stiff with about 0.5mm of depresson under finger pressure as bok suggests

the story wil continue

discopotato03 · Post by **discopotato03** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:25 am

Don't you hate it when people sow those little seeds of doubt ...

Dunno if it helps but I noticed that a few individuals (on USMB) had hassles with the injector wires between their ECU and injectors themselves . In a USDM XT there is a wiring connection beside one of the front seats (remember ECU is under rear parcel shelf) that is a known bad joint and can lead to intermittent "injector loss" .

If you had some time and lengths of wire you could possibly run temporary direct wires from the ECU to the injector in the missing cylinder .
Actually injected EA82's run batch fire (injectors fire or squirt in pairs) so if you could possibly daisy chain the wiring of no2's mate and see how the miss goes .

Can't remember if I've mentioned this one before , cheers A .

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:11 pm

I have already done this, swapped connectors between #2 and #4 got the same result with number 2

Guess what ? I am running on LPG so that rules out Fujis fuel system entirely !!

Also brings me to a new post

It is always helpful for people to make suggestions for thought.

I have started the beast up this mornng and and MATE, every *&#$$% swear word under the sun - the wisdom and experience of SCOOBIDOO is looking more and more the likely answer to the problem NOT that I ever doubted him, I doubted the fact that the heads were repaired and serviced by a large head business who you would want to believe they have done their best. I spoke to them earlier today and yes it is possible for a lifter to bully around a weak valve spring, a weak valve spring that falls just at the lower limit of aceptable SPIT SPIT $^R%@% SPIT !!!

signed , Despondent

YouTube · Post by **El_Freddo** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:27 pm

Mate that'd suck if it is a valve spring problem - especially since they're double sprung -> a smaller spring inside a larger unit.

My MPFI when it was going had the same issue, but it was really random. At times the engine could be under max load from 2000 to 5000 RPM and be as smooth as silk, other times it could miss all the way up til I changed gear.

It sometimes did it with medium throttle but it was never always in the same situation - I just got used to it even though it frustrated me...

I can't remember if it was still there when the solids were in, they were only there for a week and a half max...

I had heard about the valve spring problem, probabily from here - it got me thinking: is there another spring that would suit the job that was a higher rating? But never looked into it...

Yet another reason why I want an EJ.

Cheers

Bennie

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:07 pm

At a time when I am getting closer to this year old problem I thought it was worth crediting SCOOBIDOO for his words early in the piece. Not doubting him at the time, just didn't believe a head shop could miss weak valve springs.

Now that I have asked them the likelihood, the spring may have been at the lower end of the tolerance and a weak spring can be bullied by a lifter/HVLA they say...., the factory manuals do not allow a minimum tolerance BTW.

I have now just tried 10W30 oil suggested by Steve (and someone else earlier) although the factory manuals show 20W50 is OK down to zero, I now find good experience to trust Steve and not the manuals. If you got an EA82 and don't run 10W30 I say spend the extra dollars and try it next time.

I have found a reduction in the bullying symptoms of the still suspected weak valve springs , and an improvement in the intake backfire symptoms with the LPG. Nex time I post in this post I hope to say I have got new springs in and it all works no miss

)

SCOOBIDOO's words were:

did you check your valve springs for correct tension?
This symptom is of a weak valve spring and allows the lifter to partially pump up with higher oil preassure,s above idle ....over and above what the spring can deal with.... when the engine settle,s back to idle,after a few seconds it goes away..due to the lower oil pressure..which in turn allows the weak valve spring to overcome the excess lift of the lifter...and allows the valve to fully seal...this is when the miss goes away..... touch the throttle and its there agian....this is a constant cycle which is caused by a weak spring...usually the cylinder beside the turbo...or n#2 if the head is swapped to the opposite side..
you may ask why is it not there at all rpm above idle then?this is because the volumetric efficiency of the engine overcome,s the leak of the valve not seating..maybe 20-40 thou at most...like the start of a burnt valve it is usually apparent at idle and goes away when under throttle...and when the oil pressure drops to its lowest possible at idle...it is gone again. and a compression test will always shown full compression with this problem...due to no oil pressure at cranking speed. If your still scratching your head with all else.....then this is what you need to consider...p.s it is possible to r & r the spring with only the removal of the rocker cover.and 2 specialty tools....but the engine needs to be removed...else do it the conventional way.which requires around the same time ..timing covers..cam box..cam....put a rag in the cylinder and put the piston against the valve..that way you dont have to remove the head..or pump with compressed air.

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:19 pm

bumping this one up for updating as soon as i get this engine up and running. finally got around to fitting a new set of genuine valve springs.SCOOBIDOO's diagnosis will then be finally proved correct.

Having done the strip down to fit new hydraulic lash adjusters in car, and this job done with engine on floor - this method for this level of tear down was so much easier and quicker, and also better on the body of the technician. I used a compressed air attachment to each cylinder, leaving flex plate tied up in two positions, left at TDC on 1 and 2. Also did the other cylinders without changing the flexplate tie up. Their pistons were at the bottom of their respective bores and presented no problem using the spring compressor tool

have left my springs with my machine shop to compare against specs from WSM

SCOOBIDOO · Post by **SCOOBIDOO** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:59 pm

It is a long time coming to see how the engine will respond to the good springs Jonno,i think you will be plesantly surprised...did you fit your knock box yet?
you must use the 10/30 grade oil in the ea82t else you will go through turbo,s.... cheers

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:15 pm

Don't I know it being a long time. First I had to eliminate all other possibilities that were quicker to do. The final job involved engine out and that required some motorvation - what with the heat shield bolts and torque converter bolts and lining all the turbo and engine studs up. Then in between had to do the LPG conversion and get it sorted and the vac advance/boost retard unit.

The knock box was for hoarding in case i talk self into keeping the GLTA and running the Brumby as same.

The verdict came back from my engine guy that he could not get the specs out of the springs and they just feel soft in the hand and you'd think people working with these things all day would know. Waiting 'til I get engine in before discussion with the head shop who did the work

discopotato03 · Post by **discopotato03** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:41 am

For some reason I thought I'd posted this but I'm on too many boards and lose track of what and where .

This is from my 1987 Factory L Series WSM .

Valve springs .

Free length ................. Outer 50.7mm / 1.996 in .
................................. Inner 50.3mm / 1.980 in .

Squareness ................. Both 2.2mm / 0.087 in .

Tension/spring height ... Outer 45.6 to 53.6 lb at 41.5mm / 1.634 in .
......................................... 112.9 to 129.7 at 31.5mm / 1.240 in .

Tension/spring height ... Inner 19.8 to 22.7 lb at 38.5mm / 1.516 in .
......................................... 45.2 to 51.8 ib at 28.5mm / 1.122 in .

This Suby WSM doesn't differentiate between turbo and NA engines so at least in 1987 all EA82s must have used the same valve springs all round .

I would err towards the upper numbers particularly if you rev it a bit .
Also if you raise the boost pressure you need to raise the inlet valve (on the seat) spring pressure by the same amount otherwise boost pressure acting on the backs of the inlet valves when closed reduces their effective spring rate on boost .

This actually reminds me , I'll contact my engine builder to see what he's done with my engine . Much easier to correct things on an engine stand than in the car .

Also just in case anyone doesn't know it's a very common practise for engine builders to shim up valve springs to get the correct open and closed spring loadings . When valves and valve seats are resurfaced in the reconditioning process (seats re-cut/valve faces reground) The valve sits a little higher in the head which has the same effect as slightly lengthening the valve stem .
Basically the valve has moved slightly upwards but the heads spring seat has not so the springs opens up slightly and therefore it exerts less pressure or load on the valve .
The usual remedy is to put shimms under the spring seat steel disk (aluminium head remember) to return the valve to its correct "fitted length" and loading .
If anyone does this themselves be ultra careful that the springs don't coil bind or close up solid . If they do then the engine will break something critical .

Hope this helps , cheers A .

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:07 pm

Well, well, well

SCOOBIDOO GOT IT RIGHT !

Two of my most trusted head and machine shops over the last 25 years both doubted that weak valve spring could be the cause. Even bumped into one of the guys at lunchtime and he reinforced his reasoning that due to being double valve springs could not see it happening.

I am here to tell you that finally, after finding this problem 18 months ago, after all new ignition components and clean and tested injectors and wiring and replacing HVLA with new that new valve springs fixed the intermittent miss.

You can read it back further that SCOOBIDOO made this diagnosis a long time ago.

ONYA SCOOBI !!

Brand new GENUINE valve springs direct from Japan. My parts guy says in all his years as a parts interpreter he has never had to order valve springs for anyone but me !!

Anyone following this drama will likely understand why I didn't wanna do this job until last option for the work involved, money for springs was very reasonable, and the heads had been done and the staff stated the springs would have been within their specs.

Pfft.....

Absolute dream to drive and to rev as a 5 speed this time too YAHOOO

Onya SCOOB

YouTube · Post by **El_Freddo** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:56 pm

Alright Big Kev, time to settle down! Glad its sorted, it was probabily the same problem I experienced with my MPFI - but it was intermittent, would happen sometimes in any situation

Enjoy your ride mate, you've put a lot of effort into it!

Cheers

Bennie

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:53 pm

she is sweet. the manual brings out her best in drivabilty, 2.5 inch zaust note and the gas carby or mixer acts or sounds like a blow off valve so very hard to drive turbo discreet. in 5th i can get boosty at 2000rpm. i will enjoy

SCOOBIDOO · Post by **SCOOBIDOO** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:22 pm

What a milestone for you Jonno..Enjoy your ride...Cheers

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:00 am

Did I mention that if my heads valve springs were checked by the All Head Service in Melbourne, each and every one of them, they would have found that some of them were not within or at the required factory specification, in comparison to brand new from Japan they felt very soft in the fitted state. I've written to Mark who i dealt with all those years ago, sent him the sample soft springs late 2011 - still waiting for his reply, maybe he did not get my parcel, maybe he figures I am not worth responding to as it took me nearly five years to tell him how pissed off I was to discover the intermittent miss was due to a valve spring or two not to specification. AHS advertising claims to the effect if problems arise we are all in it together, if there is problem, they will help out .....I was and still am happy with the rest of their work on the heads, told him so too !!