2010 Diesel Drivetrain shudder

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:46 pm

It may help diddly squat, but would it be a good idea for everyone with this problem edit their post or signature to state that you are the first owner, drive more than 80 kms after start up and were advised by sales staff that this may need to be a consideration when purchasing the Diesel option. I am of the understanding that Diesel purchasers are either told or enquired of what sort of driving they wish or expect to do.

It may just be - excited about a new car, a new Subie at that, and the promised economy of a Diesel that we may not hear the need for these Diesels to not putter around town at low revs and speed, short distances etc. I can see some there are differing driving conditions by all those experiencing this.

I can just see one brand shifting on reliability surveys. One theory explained to me by an engineer on why one brand features high on the wrong end of the list is that the cars start out at high end purchase price and as soon as something goes wrong, vengence comes out at survey time.

Just hope whole issue can be sorted for all inflicted - it'd worry me if it happened the way you al report it

Subyroo · Post by **Subyroo** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:09 pm

steptoe wrote:I am of the understanding that Diesel purchasers are either told or enquired of what sort of driving they wish or expect to do.

The guy who services my Forester told me exactly that when I asked him if he had any feedback from Diesel Forester owners, he only deals in Subaru Servicing too.

drwormy · Post by **drwormy** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:21 pm

I was asked where i lived, if i liked Stone Silver (colour).... oh and if i wanted a coffee...

Was told what their best price was and when it would be available for delivery.

I think that was it.

Subyroo wrote:The guy who services my Forester told me exactly that when I asked him if he had any feedback from Diesel Forester owners, he only deals in Subaru Servicing too.

Backyard_Brumby · Post by **Backyard_Brumby** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:44 pm

Hey guys,

not owning a diesel myself I have not had much experience with the dpf however I had a fairly lengthy chat with a Penrite rep today and thought I might pass on what information they were able to provide. They are currently really pushing their Enviro + range of oil as the only oil to use in DPF fitted cars. I was shown a couple of pictures of a DPF out of some merc vito vans and a couple of utes that were quite clogged up after a short amount of k's....the way it was explained to me was that a decent trip between 80 to 100km/h for at least 20 mins was needed to build up heat/pressure to burn off and clean the filter.

The push by this rep was that this particular blend contained heavily reduced zinc/sulfur? (can't remember it was a long chat) which burnt off more efficiently without leaving the hardened residue clogging the filter and causing issues.

Might be worth giving this Enviro + a whirl for those with the DPF considering I have seen the exorbitant amount that is charged to install a new DPF....the ones in the Vito were upward of $6000 apparently

Anyways that is my two cents, thought it might be a handy thought for some...if anyone has any additional or even contradictory info I am always happy to learn

Not Happy Jan !! · Post by **Not Happy Jan !!** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:56 am

Hey just wondering if anybody had considered contacting the media ? Maybe Today Tonight or a Current Affair, it may push Subaru a little faster in getting this problem fixed ! Another consideration could be a class action against them ! Consumer Law does state "Fit for Purpose" are these Subaru's are far from that !

skipalami · Post by **skipalami** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 6:07 am

Going to the media would be a foolish thing to do.

If FHI are working on it, giving them a hurry on would only force a half baked solution on all of us.

Bad idea.

suthol · Post by **suthol** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:28 am

skipalami wrote:Going to the media would be a foolish thing to do.

If FHI are working on it, giving them a hurry on would only force a half baked solution on all of us.

Bad idea.

I have spoken at some length to someone I know at Wheels Magazine and he said they didn't experience any problems when they tested but based on the experience of most of us on here that is hardly surprising because they are testing brand new cars and not one that has hit the sweet spot for these problems. ( I do know the guy quite well and it was between us and not for publication )

My shudder started around 8000 Km and it has been back regularly to have the ECU reset and yesterday I had it in to the dealer to have the flashing DPF light sorted.

I related to them the tales of woe expressed here and came away with the impression that Subaru are working on the issue but that the main problem is where and the way I drive.

This moring I experienced a minor shudder after shifting into 5th when going down hill, this was about 5 mins after startup and I didn't experience it again in the 50 min drive in heavy traffic to the office.

The journey is Sutherland to Nth Ryde for those who know the Sydney area.

Still not happy.

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:32 pm

I can see a little further past the waranty track the same treatment some bad cats get - a thorough-never-to-trouble-again-gutting

Gannon · Post by **Gannon** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:46 pm

I wonder if removing a DPF from a diesel car incurs the same penalty in removing a catalytic converter from a petrol car?

Backyard_Brumby · Post by **Backyard_Brumby** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:58 pm

I think the whole idea is a bit off to be honest, from the complaints I have been getting from customers the dpf equipped cars are burning through more oil than standard which just seems to negate the whole environmental reasoning behind the dpf

FROG · Post by **FROG** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 6:56 pm

There are other issues regarding health that come into play as far as I'm aware, reckon on saving 95% of 4 KILOGRAMS of nasty soot over 100 000 klm (as an example , from what I've read!)
The idea of closed loop dpf is sound, but in my opinion, is in it's infancy

This stuff is bad for our kids and Grannies

1111giles · Post by **1111giles** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:44 pm

Interesting thread - my 2009 MY 5 speed Outback Diesel suffered this effect but only on tick over eg when stood at the lights. - Subaru UK swapped the EGR valve for a new one and re-mapped the ECU.
Never done it since.

Guys do you notice or have you ever noticed when you boot it away from your last over take victim a good dollop of soot and cloud out of the exhaust? (ie you leave your 'victim' in a cloud of diesel smog)

If so then change the EGR valve. - It may help the whole system run correctly as they are all feeding into the same info centre in the car.

Hope this helps.

ForesterDiesel · Post by **ForesterDiesel** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:38 pm

steptoe wrote:It may help diddly squat, but would it be a good idea for everyone with this problem edit their post or signature to state that you are the first owner, drive more than 80 kms after start up and were advised by sales staff that this may need to be a consideration when purchasing the Diesel option. I am of the understanding that Diesel purchasers are either told or enquired of what sort of driving they wish or expect to do.

Is this for real? Is this what salesmen really should be telling customers? Driving more than 80km each stint???

My daily drive will be 70km each way to work, some small 100kph zones, steady 80kph zones, and some stop start 60kph zones for the final 5km.

At least once or twice a week it would get over an hour's drive at 110kph.

Would this fit the criteria of the DPF?

Nathan.

pitrack_1 · Post by **pitrack_1** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:54 am

Hi,

Been on the subaruforester.org forums, they suggested I see over here, so I've decided to wade on in

I received today some interesting info from a dealer, that's in my next post.

Background: My wife and I obtained a Diesel Forester in Au 2010. Has 13k kms, serviced early Jan. One incident of stuttering early on, can confirm tacho jumps about (speedo didn't). Happened at 100km/h on a straight flat stretch of road. I know someone who has had one for a month and is having repeated problems, daily.

A couple of quick replies:

1) Thanks to subyroo on subaruforester.org (I assume you're the same here?) for pointing me here.
2) drwormy I can confirm your experience with the tacho wobble during the shudder. And not being asked what type of driving I'm doing but colour, options, price.
3) Mess: (jmess from subaruforester.org?). Guessing your problems are going up the Tuggeranong Parkway from Sulwood Dr intersection (80 - 100 slight gradient)? I'm in Canberra too if you want to compare notes. Could be worse- stuck like me on the GDE or Northbourne Ave mess! I 'defected' to the north-side...

Cheers!

pitrack_1 · Post by **pitrack_1** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:11 am

I posted the following in subaruforester.org but it's probably more relevant here now (some minor editing done).

-------
Spoke to my local dealer today regarding this DPF issue. Apparently there is a 'tech note' out in the past couple of weeks to mitigate the DPF regen issue. The advice is to revise the recommended gear shift-up points in the owner's manual (p7-20 in mine, Starting and Operating chapter). Apparently there may be a printout available from the dealer for this. This will assist the engine to run at a better operating temperature.

A 6-sp manual is standard in Aust. New recommended shift points in km/h (old in brackets) are, note 4-5th and 5-6th are the alterations, 6th very substantial:

Shift km/h (old km/h)
1-2 no recommendation given (24)
2-3 40 (40)
3-4 64 (64)
4-5 82 (72)
5-6 105 (80)

These roughly match what I've been doing myself as I found the car to drive better and have slightly better economy doing so, rather than the quoted owner's-manual shift points- going by the trip computer, which I have found pretty accurate over several tanks.

They also suggested what I thought may be contributory, Australia's fuels are lower grade compared to e.g. Europe and America and may lead to a greater precedence of the problem here.

I must congratulate my service person at the dealership: he was knowledgeable, helpful, honest and answered my questions over the phone quickly and pertinently. I'll keep his name/the dealership quiet for now, lest they be inundated with queries.

-------

Note Aust diesel specs can be found at
http://www.environment.gov.au/atmospher ... index.html

I hope this helps as a workaround, if not a solution.

MY11OBD · Post by **MY11OBD** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:01 pm

G'Day Pitrack 1, you words are very interesting and encouraging.
Since I had my DPF regen done at around 4,500km I am now up to almost 10,000km without the DPF light comming back on. However during this time have ensured revs remained high when changing gears.

I am now driving mostly 4th at 80km above and 5th on 100km. found that shudder occurs at 5th on 100km around 2000 rpm, yet putting in 6th at 100km its at 1800 rpm. For me the shudder occurs more when changing to 5th going up to 100km at 2000 rpm.

With the shifting style you have shown, what is the rpm's? what is your average consumption over 1 tank?

Subyroo · Post by **Subyroo** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:36 pm

pitrack_1 wrote:Hi,

A couple of quick replies:

1) Thanks to subyroo on subaruforester.org (I assume you're the same here?) for pointing me here.

Cheers!

Ya got me pitrack.

Legal Eagle · Post by **Legal Eagle** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:45 pm

This problem does not seem normal to me for new vehicles. I am aware of another vehicle that has very low k's doing the same thing, slight incline, loss of power and shudder. I would be interested in contacting other owners with similar problems with the view of making a group representation to Subaru.

skipalami · Post by **skipalami** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:39 pm

Legal Eagle wrote:This problem does not seem normal to me for new vehicles. I am aware of another vehicle that has very low k's doing the same thing, slight incline, loss of power and shudder. I would be interested in contacting other owners with similar problems with the view of making a group representation to Subaru.

I agree with your statement that it is not how new vehicles should perform, however if FHI are working on the issue, I believe we should give them time to deliver a properly engineered solution.

pitrack_1 · Post by **pitrack_1** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:06 am

Today I received form my dealer a sheet with the revised shift points for the diesel Forester, so I consider the following shift changes 'official'. I mentioned a 'tech note' previously, apparently this is incorrect- it is technical advice from Subaru Australia (not FHI Japan) to their dealers. Details below, was listed previously as phone-given info.

The problem seems particularly prevalent in Aust. Subaru suspect fuel quality has something to do with it, they have (and so have other manufacturers) had problems with petrol quality previously, to the extent that Subaru apparently commissioned their own fuel tests. They found that the 98RON fuels could vary as low as 94RON...and it was legal. Needless to say, the highly-strung type engines, such as the Liberty B4 didn't react too well to this. Got to wonder about the diesel.

Apparently other manufacturers (he quoted Peugeot, VW, Renault) have also been having issues with their Euro5-style emission control systems ('closed loop' I believe it's called).

I had exactly the same advice from an ex Toyota dealer mechanic, however he's pre-DPF-era now.

The sheet advises:

Shift / speed (km/h) / Engine speed min (rpm)
1 -> 2 / 24 / 2600
2 -> 3 / 40 / 2200
3 -> 4 / 64 / 2200
4 -> 5 / 82 / 2100
5 -> 6 / 105 / 2000

Those engine speeds are for the higher gear. Shifts 4 -> 5 and 5 -> 6 are higher than previously, 5 -> 6 appreciably so.

I went out and checked the above tonight and these indicated speedo speeds match indicated revs on my dash, except 5 - > 6 was probably more like 1900-1950 rpm.

I confirmed however, from previous experience that my speedo against a GPS shows (used cruise control on a flat road):
GPS (km/h) / Speedo (km/h)
60 / 65
80 / 87 - 88
100 / 108
110 / 118 - 119

and I'd back the GPS. Which is about 8% difference, or 160rpm out of 2000. If I use GPS speeds for shifts, making it just that bit easier on keeping the engine 'on song'.

The AUSubaru.com.au Forums

2010 Diesel Drivetrain shudder

Has anybody considered going to the media ?

But wait, there's more...

and more... workaround info from a service dept

Diesel shudder

Revised diesel Forester shift points from Subaru Aust