Diesel Particulate Filter - DPF

[Ricker]

Hi guys,

I have 3000kms on my clock now. Build date June 2010. Bought it in February 2011.
I do very short trips to work each day. 8km's each way. I have always had a lead foot, and so have always reved the car extremly hard. I have noticed the car does regens ALL the time. Its very rare for me to experience a drive where the car doesnt at some point, nick all my torque and power because its doing a regen. Find that part frustrating and know that its due to the fact I keep interrupting them when I turn the car off.
Not much I can do there, besides try and take the car for a long run whenever possible. I was not told anything about anything in regards to DPF filters, driving long distances etc when buying the car. Infact I had to mention something to the salesman in regard to DPF's from the reading I had done. Sadly at that point I had not done enough reading to be 100% convinced this problem would not occur to me...

Well until friday afternoon I've had no issues, besides lots of regens. But just as I started to head out for a decent lengthed trip down south, the DPF light lit up. I was extremly concerned it was going to start flashing within 5 mins, as a lot of forum members have mentioned, so I quickly swerved onto the M2 which happened to be 200m away from where I was. Problem was, it was peak hour traffic and I had forgotten how bad it is on the M2. So I was stuck in stop start bumper to bumper traffic for a good 20 minutes. I was sure the light was going to start flashing, but to my utmost suprise and relief, it just went out?

Has anyone had this experience? Does anyone know why it might of lit up and then gone out after only like 1km of stop start? I'm not complaining, but i'd like to know what is going on?

Also my oil level, is about 1cm higher than the full mark. It has been like this ever since I received the car, and doesnt seem to move either higher or lower. Just seems strange that its so high above the full mark (taking this measurement when the car is hot and then has sat for 5 minutes - as according to the manual)

Any help would be appreciated.

[pjtaylor3]

Got a 2009 Diesel outback with 25000km on it. I have experienced the shudder aswell usually in 6th gear up a slight incline. Its a hill I drive up everyday but it has only happened maybe 4 or 5 times. Also had a problem with the DPF light flashing. Its come on before both services. this time we had to get it service 2000km early because they couldn't clear the flashing light. Had no choice but to keep driving it with the flashing light for 3 days until they could fit me in for a service. in that time the enging malfunction light cam on, the traction control stopped working, electric handbrake error light came on, cruise contol stopped working. Was told by the dealer that the DPF light came on because the oil isn't lasting the 12500 km service interval. I don't know if all these problems could be caused by old oil.
I think the engine is very unpredictable. Sometimes the car accelerates smoothly and quickly the other days there is about 2 seconds of turbo lag between every gear change
Anyone had any problems like this

[Ricker]

Ok, today the DPF light came on flashing for me, straight off the bat. From what I've read elsewhere this means there is a oil dilution issue. I.e its just become greater than 10%. I have driven 3100km in 56 days since buying the car. Thats avg of 55km a day and equates to 20000km a year, which I consider pretty normal driving regardless of what sorta trips I do each day.

I guess I will have to phone my dealer tomorrow. What should I be expecting as an outcome?

There is no way I'm paying for anything after just buying a brand new car and having issues like this before even 2 months. I'm gonna pop if they even suggest paying a cent!
There is no way this is acceptable to have issues before 2 months in. I wouldnt even expect to have issues on a second hand car this fast! To fork out so much cash for a product that hasnt even made it 2 months without spitting the dummy, I find to be totally unacceptable to the point that I expect them to drop everything and look after me!

Do I expect this to happen..... yeah right

The car is attempting to many regens because I'm doing low km's. But I care not as I don't believe they can create a car that can't drive in any conditions and sell it to people with no warnings that it can't. If this car is solely for long highway drives alone. 1. It shouldnt be classified as a car 2. It should have great big warning stickers all over it, saying "I can't be used as a normal car, for everyday purposes, I will crap myself"

And as my salesperson did not mention anything more than, quote "every now and again you will have to do a longer trip to clear the DPF". I cannot see how they have any feet to stand on if this was a matter at court. I have taken the car for at least 5 or 6 150-300km highway drives in the time that I have had this car, and have not seen any issues with the DPF light besides this one random time it came on for a minute and then went out.

Besides that, the car has been fine, Minus the fact that it is constantly doing a regen. Even when I finish just doing one. I turn the car off and then on again, and next thing you know, its doing one again!

There is some serious problems here and they need addressing, and whilst their being addressed they need to compensate us people who are guinea pigging technology for them. They aint paying me to be a guinea pig, and so far I've certainly paid them.

What have people found happens when they've taken their car in to the dealer with this issue, or any DPF or oil dilution issue?

[pjtaylor3]

How can you tell when the diesel is doing a regen?

[Ricker]

Sometimes the car accelerates smoothly and quickly the other days there is about 2 seconds of turbo lag between every gear change
Anyone had any problems like this

When the car has this much lag, and when you notice that the car just doesnt have the same spirit and torque.
The car is doing a regen at these points.

Also your fuel economy rises slightly. The main notice though is the driveability of the car. The car becomes a slug

[pjtaylor3]

When the car has this much lag, and when you notice that the car just doesnt have the same spirit and torque.
The car is doing a regen at these points.

Also your fuel economy rises slightly. The main notice though is the driveability of the car. The car becomes a slug

I have noticed that sometimes on a dead flat road it would be cruising at about
6L/100km then then other days would be 8L/100 on the same bit of road.

[Ricker]

Yeah it definetly brings up the fuel consumption. But the worst part about it, is just how much it ruins the drive of the car. That and all the DPF and oil dilution issues its creating.

[pitrack_1]

Ricker,

I have had to deal with dealers on warranty issues before and I found the following helpful. This includes my current Forester diesel.

* Keep a cool head. Approach them calmly, with all your info at hand and explain clearly.
* Don't ring the dealer, or they will book you in at their convenience. Turn up unannounced, as if you've broken down (which you have, really). They will then have to do something on the spot- at the very least, look at the vehicle. Works for me. Live in Canberra, approached a Sydney dealer with an issue. Problem sorted in 0.5-1hr.
* Perhaps get some technical and/or legal advice from the NRMA (if you are a member) and/or Fair Trading NSW before approaching the dealer. NRMA technical is now hard to find, if it exists at all any more. Fair Trading have some info on their website regarding "Motor vehicle warranty and repair disputes". You can also ring for advice, I have often found they can provide pointers over the phone to assist in dealing with traders.
* Try a different dealer if necessary. Especially for a second opinion. Find one you trust and is competent i.e. aware of issues- can answer questions reasonably and explain reasons clearly. Note a reasonable answer can show you you're wrong...
* Warranty service has to be provided wherever you have the problem. A dealership nearby the dealer you bought the car from may perhaps justifiably claim you should go back to the dealer you bought the vehicle from. But if, for instance, you travelled interstate to WA and had a problem, WA's where the warranty service gets done.
* Keep a log. Write things down. Take notes, dates, times- of what they say/do as well. Get things in writing. There's nothing like hard facts. Good service people appreciate facts, bad ones don't! You're already off to a good start with your klms/days/averages.
* There may be an real underlying problem. Your problem has occurred very quickly. Someone else had this and ended up with their ECU replaced (posted elsewhere).
* You're right when you say you don't have to put up with it and forking out that much money should give you a particular level of usability. Point out, quietly, that every other vehicle on the road is in the same traffic jam/situation- and doesn't get the problem.
* Is it really being a slug during the DPF regen, or more an annoying temporary lack of response. If it's really gagging, it may be part of the problem.
* Was the oil overfilled in the first place. There may be a sensor that detects high oil levels? Not sure on this one.
* If they claim you've done something wrong, e.g. driving style, ask them to prove it/show you. After all, you can prove there's a flashing warning light....
* Don't forget the black smoke coming out the rear- the DPF is meant to stop that! This may be a titbit to keep up your sleeve.

Good luck!

[steptoe]

so guys with this problem, what about oil and filter change every 5000km like some Diesel fanatical experts I used to do work for - aside from the obvious additional cost is it worth a try? Think I have read this DPF clearing can occur soon after servicing so my idea may be just full of wind.....

[pjtaylor3]

Yeah I tried this. I had the oil and filter changed at 7000km and they charged me $220. Must be some bloody good oil. Then the 12500km service was only $190 and they did the full service
I still had the DPF light flashing at about 10000km where they did a forced regen to clear it.

[MY11OBD]

Do you guys do a 5 minute warm up prior to taking it on short trips? A good idea to do the warm up. Since I have done this in my OBD it has never come on again. I also drive it at above 2000 per gear change and find this helps.

[Falco80]

Hi guys,


I do very short trips to work each day. 8km's each way. I have always had a lead foot, and so have always reved the car extremly hard. I have noticed the car does regens ALL the time. Its very rare for me to experience a drive where the car doesnt at some point, nick all my torque and power because its doing a regen. Find that part frustrating and know that its due to the fact I keep interrupting them when I turn the car off.
Not much I can do there, besides try and take the car for a long run whenever possible. I was not told anything about anything in regards to DPF filters, driving long distances etc when buying the car. Infact I had to mention something to the salesman in regard to DPF's from the reading I had done. Sadly at that point I had not done enough reading to be 100% convinced this problem would not occur to me...

Hi Ricker, i feel your frustration with these issues, but really if you are only doing very short trips each day, then your not doing your diesel any favours. Diesels take longer to warm-up than petrol engines and it's probably only just reached operating temperature once you've done you 8km's and shut it down. A petrol engine would be much better suited. Diesels are built to be driven.

Also had a problem with the DPF light flashing. Its come on before both services. this time we had to get it service 2000km early because they couldn't clear the flashing light. Had no choice but to keep driving it with the flashing light for 3 days until they could fit me in for a service. in that time the enging malfunction light cam on, the traction control stopped working, electric handbrake error light came on, cruise contol stopped working. Was told by the dealer that the DPF light came on because the oil isn't lasting the 12500 km service interval. I don't know if all these problems could be caused by old oil.
I think the engine is very unpredictable. Sometimes the car accelerates smoothly and quickly the other days there is about 2 seconds of turbo lag between every gear change
Anyone had any problems like this

pjtaylor, did your engine ever go into 'limp" mode while the DPF light was flashing? Did you check your oil level? My dealer said it was an oil-dilution problem, not that the oil is reaching the end of it's life. I also get the 'turbo-lag" type feeling. Fair enough it may be doing a regen, but it's damn annoying.

Ricker,

I have had to deal with dealers on warranty issues before and I found the following helpful. This includes my current Forester diesel.

* Keep a cool head. Approach them calmly, with all your info at hand and explain clearly.
* Don't ring the dealer, or they will book you in at their convenience. Turn up unannounced, as if you've broken down (which you have, really). They will then have to do something on the spot- at the very least, look at the vehicle. Works for me. Live in Canberra, approached a Sydney dealer with an issue. Problem sorted in 0.5-1hr.
* Keep a log. Write things down. Take notes, dates, times- of what they say/do as well. Get things in writing. There's nothing like hard facts. Good service people appreciate facts, bad ones don't! You're already off to a good start with your klms/days/averages.

pitrack, good points there. I agree if possible drive straight to the dealer and have them rectify the fault that same day. It is an inconvenience, but it saves you driving around further and having the engine possibly going into limp-mode. My first service was done @ 9k instead of 12.5k due to my oil-dilution, and so it should have! Keeping a log of anything abnormal is great too. I also keep all fuel receipts in case a few years down the track there is an issue with the fuel system. Manufacturers will always blame a bad-batch of diesel first, before fixing anything under warranty. If you can prove where you've been filling the tank, then you've got some evidence. Hopefully it won't ever be needed.

so guys with this problem, what about oil and filter change every 5000km like some Diesel fanatical experts I used to do work for - aside from the obvious additional cost is it worth a try? Think I have read this DPF clearing can occur soon after servicing so my idea may be just full of wind.....

steptoe, 5000k oil changes are only needed for the older indirect-injected diesels. Direct-injected diesels burn cleaner and produce less soot. Oils produced these days are also much better quality than say 20 years ago. If i was doing a lot of short trips i would probably shorten the oil-change interval, but i think 125000k stated by Subaru is fair. A lot of the new common-rail diesels are done every 15000k's. My old 1979 landcruiser is 5000k intervals but it turns the oil black the first time you run it after an oil change!

[Falco80]

Do you guys do a 5 minute warm up prior to taking it on short trips? A good idea to do the warm up. Since I have done this in my OBD it has never come on again. I also drive it at above 2000 per gear change and find this helps.

A five-minute warm-up is doing more harm than good. A diesel engine will never warm-up to full operating temperature while idling. All your doing is clogging the DPF up. All you need to do is drive sedately for the first 5-10 minutes to allow the engine to completely come up to temperature and then drive it how you normally would. Driving above 2000rpm is good practice though. If your accelerating when the engine is below 1800-1900 the engine is off boost and the unburnt fuel (soot) is being collected by the DPF. It feels strange to drive around in 3rd gear when you'd usually be in fourth, but IMHO it needs to be done.

Has anybody noticed how innacurate the speedo is on the forester? I run off my Garmin and according to the GPS the speedo is indicating 9km/h slower. If i sit the speedo needle on 110km/h, the GPS displays 101km/h. Are all new vehicle built like this? Older cars seem much more accurate. It kind of explains why so many people sit on 90 on the highway though.

[softroader]

My OB is now 8 months old and has done 7000kms. The DPF light came on for the first time last week after a number of short urban runs (often less than 5kms)
The light went out the next day within 10km at the start of a weekend trip in an 80km/h zone running at slightly higher revs than normal. 10-15km later on the freeway at 110km/h there was a jolt that we assumed was the end of the regeneration process. Light did not come back on the trip that involved some freeway and open road driving and many hours of slow running on rough bush tracks.
We contacted the local Subaru dealer who emailed us a very interesting and detailed workshop advice paper that explains how the DPF system and regeneration is meant to work.

The advice it gives for driving at high revs seems way over the top. I think you would get the fuel economy of a petrol car if you followed it. It was not endorsed by the mechanic who gave us the document.

The following link is also very interesting also on the subject of oil dilution.

http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/articl ... n-problem/

It explains why the need to count DPF regenerations and reset the counter at oil changes.

Could not attach the subaru document here due to pathetic file size limit so you can find it on http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/att ... advice.pdf

[pitrack_1]

Softroader,

thanks for the articles, very interesting and informative. And sounds like you have a reasonable dealer there- hang on to them!

I posted some similar article links regarding oil dilution and post/retarded injection- see my post of 16th March in the Diesel Drivetrain Shudder thread.

Given this and the posts in the Diesel Drivetrain Shudder thread, I think Subaru may have begun to believe their own hype. Instead of engineering cars to satisfy customers, they seem to be expecting the customers to satisfy the engineers.

The Subaru document you posted/linked is depressing- not for the information, but for the tone, which smacks of arrogance-

1) "If the driver complains that the DPF warning light..." so the drivers only complain, do they?
2) "Dealer visit request" - if it was a request, you wouldn't HAVE to bring it to the dealer!
3) "Forced regeneration of the diesel particulate filter due to incorrect driving style or driving patterns is not covered by warranty." - fair enough if true, but (a) you have to prove this, (b) the dealer, given this statement, will assume this is the problem and is given no other options, possible causes or investigations to carry out. It's a dealer panacea, not a customer solution.

And the idea that only dealers can do regens...

The article doesn't inspire me with confidence as to the longevity of my Forester Diesel. What happens in several years' time when Subaru decide not to support the vehicle? If I decide to (or have to) have it serviced elsewhere- I hope they make available the details for a forced regen (or anything else). And the DPF may end up being a replaceable part- and give a quote for $3500 Euro posted elsewhere, I'd suggest that would negate any savings from fuel over the lifespan of the vehicle!

And how on earth can you do your own oil change if you can't reset the oil dilution ratio? Our Mazda3 SP23- not exactly old tech (yet)- can have a service as simple as an oil change, even using 20W-50 (in spec in the handbook).

This doesn't inspire me as to the resale or lifespan of the vehicle. After a few years no-one will want a vehicle they can't service themself.

In conjunction with some other design/build issues (such as blind spots in convex mirrors as they lack enough adjustment- how did they manage that?) I am now reconsidering my future ownership of the diesel forester. I am beginning to consider it a $45000 mistake. Pity.

[GT Automotive Service]

We have method for Subaru Forester 2.0 TDI for reseting oil dilultion counter in ECU after oil change. Email me @ [email protected] & I will reply with details. We have been servicing & repairing Subarus for 25+ years. DPF warning light coming on is wide spread problem, we are currently researching method for manual regen (Force burn) of DPF filter. Shudder issue is related to DPF self regen process.
Regards Geoff @ gtautomotiveservice.

Softroader,

thanks for the articles, very interesting and informative. And sounds like you have a reasonable dealer there- hang on to them!

I posted some similar article links regarding oil dilution and post/retarded injection- see my post of 16th March in the Diesel Drivetrain Shudder thread.

Given this and the posts in the Diesel Drivetrain Shudder thread, I think Subaru may have begun to believe their own hype. Instead of engineering cars to satisfy customers, they seem to be expecting the customers to satisfy the engineers.

The Subaru document you posted/linked is depressing- not for the information, but for the tone, which smacks of arrogance-

1) "If the driver complains that the DPF warning light..." so the drivers only complain, do they?
2) "Dealer visit request" - if it was a request, you wouldn't HAVE to bring it to the dealer!
3) "Forced regeneration of the diesel particulate filter due to incorrect driving style or driving patterns is not covered by warranty." - fair enough if true, but (a) you have to prove this, (b) the dealer, given this statement, will assume this is the problem and is given no other options, possible causes or investigations to carry out. It's a dealer panacea, not a customer solution.

And the idea that only dealers can do regens...

The article doesn't inspire me with confidence as to the longevity of my Forester Diesel. What happens in several years' time when Subaru decide not to support the vehicle? If I decide to (or have to) have it serviced elsewhere- I hope they make available the details for a forced regen (or anything else). And the DPF may end up being a replaceable part- and give a quote for $3500 Euro posted elsewhere, I'd suggest that would negate any savings from fuel over the lifespan of the vehicle!

And how on earth can you do your own oil change if you can't reset the oil dilution ratio? Our Mazda3 SP23- not exactly old tech (yet)- can have a service as simple as an oil change, even using 20W-50 (in spec in the handbook).

This doesn't inspire me as to the resale or lifespan of the vehicle. After a few years no-one will want a vehicle they can't service themself.

In conjunction with some other design/build issues (such as blind spots in convex mirrors as they lack enough adjustment- how did they manage that?) I am now reconsidering my future ownership of the diesel forester. I am beginning to consider it a $45000 mistake. Pity.

[Diesel OB]

We have method for Subaru Forester 2.0 TDI for reseting oil dilultion counter in ECU after oil change. Email me @ [email protected] & I will reply with details. We have been servicing & repairing Subarus for 25+ years. DPF warning light coming on is wide spread problem, we are currently researching method for manual regen (Force burn) of DPF filter. Shudder issue is related to DPF self regen process.
Regards Geoff @ gtautomotiveservice.

Hi Geoff,

I would love to here any results you have in regards to the DPF issue. I actually started this post and in the last few months we have has the car back 6 times, always light coming on flashing straight away, no solid light first.

The last time it was due to the oil dilution being @ 11% even though the car had only done about 2000kms on that oil. Just had the service done after a further 2000kms and the level was back up to 3%. I still say there is a fault with the car, but Subaru are unable to find anything. The second last visit they actually erased the ECU and started again.

I still think that there is a link here!! We never had an issue until the first service at which I believe it was over filled with oil, and we have had all these issues since. The second service just done it has again been overfilled, not sure if the amount Subaru specify is wrong and they do not dip it or what the case is. Do you think this could cause the kind of problems we are seeing?

The other thing that has happend since all this started is the fuel economy has gone down the toilet. In the beginning we could easily get 1100kms on a trip but now struggle to get 900kms.

I don't know how long a customer needs to put up with this sort of thing before getting some kind of replacement or compensation? But it is starting to wear a bit thin.

Regards Phil

[naturalfooter]

Interesting reading...

I have just purchased 2011 Diesel Forester. I have only done 2k with no problems yet. I think it is a great car to drive.

Has anyone contacted consumer affairs or taken legal advice on this matter yet? What are out rights if this issue can not be resolved?

This is the first time I have ever purchased a new car and I am stressing big time. This is a car I wish to last for a long time.

[Diesel OB]

Interesting reading...

I have just purchased 2011 Diesel Forester. I have only done 2k with no problems yet. I think it is a great car to drive.

Has anyone contacted consumer affairs or taken legal advice on this matter yet? What are out rights if this issue can not be resolved?

This is the first time I have ever purchased a new car and I am stressing big time. This is a car I wish to last for a long time.

Hi Naturalfooter,

Mine is an Outback.....and I have spoken with consumer affairs!!

More or less told me that as there is no "Lemon Law" in Australia that to get anywhere I would need to sue them.

However they did say that there would be a case as the new car warranty states that the vehicle must be "Fit For Purpose" and any car that needs to go to the dealer 6 times in 2-3 months is not that.

Haven't really got the cash to chance loosing though.....maybe we all need to get together and approach a lawyer to see if a class action is something worth looking into???

Phil

[Subyroo]

More or less told me that as there is no "Lemon Law" in Australia that to get anywhere I would need to sue them.

Haven't really got the cash to chance loosing though.....maybe we all need to get together and approach a lawyer to see if a class action is something worth looking into???

Phil

Phil that is exactly what I suggested to Mess in this thread: showthread.php?t=18766 see post #174.

Maybe you should talk to Slater & Gordon or another legal company who offers a no win - no fee type service.