EA81 valve stem seal replacement, heads on?

RatCamper · Post by **RatCamper** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:51 pm

G'day. Though I'd better start a dedicated thread for this instead of crapping up my already incorrect hitachi carb thread.

The result of that thread is a carburettor swap, some tinkering with the jetting and realising the motor has an oil control issue. It seems like, or at least I hope it seems like a valve stem seal issue.

What I would like to know is there a reason why I can't do it with the engine assembled? valve train excepted of course. It doesn't live in a Subie right now and making space or even removal isn't massively hard if clearance ends up being an issue.

So, can I do it? What's an adequate type of spring compressor for the job? Where can I get seals at a decent price?

Yes, I am trying to do this on the cheap. That's why I don't want to remove the heads. If it's not the stem seals then the motor is essentially cactus anyway, so why bother getting nice new gaskets?

For fun, this is what I'm dealing with:

It's been cleaned up more since then, but that's more or less it.

YouTube · Post by **El_Freddo** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:04 pm

You can do this by removing the rocker arms and spark plugs, clean the area around the spark plug hole first then get a skinny rag that is long to shove in the hole. The aim is to fill the cavity of the combustion chamber enough to use the piston as the pressure behind the valve. Once you have a lot of rag in there, turn the engine over gently with a breaker bar until you feel resistance. This is now ready to have the valve springs released.

I don't know of a spring compressor that does the job like this, we use brute force with pliers etc to get the half moon clips in and out. Generally a two person job. But it will allow you to get to the valve stem seals.

You will have to do one cylinder at a time

All the best with it - I hope this is the fix!

Cheers

Bennie

Matt · Post by **Matt** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:06 pm

Yes you can do them in car but you will need speciality tools to hold the valves closed so to speak. Also to get the rockers off you will have to remove 2 head bolts per side which will possibly break the seal on the headgaskets. I believe it easier and better to remove the heads and be done with it as you will be chasing your tail so to speak. but i don't knwo how hard the engine is to get out but.

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:38 pm

Speakin' with some experience of the compressed air approach, did it on engine [EA82T] out, flywheel held locked on tdc of each cylinder, compressed air jammed in cylinder [little easier to recover than ingenious rag method] and a valve spring compressing tool , very quick and easy get springs on and off. I did not do seals themselves just springs.

Nice ting with 81's is only inlets? have valve stem seals

RatCamper · Post by **RatCamper** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:40 pm

Ahh! So the rocker bolts are also head bolts? It may be okay if I don't use air pressure to hold the valves up. Maybe. I suppose if I bugger up it'd be a pair of head gaskets and a pair of intake manifold gaskets wouldn't it? Can't think of any other gaskets for taking a head off.

I found this thing, which looks promising:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/OHV-OHC-CHV- ... 490wt_1141

I was going to feed a heap of nylon rope into the cylinder at about bdc through the sparky hole, and rotate the motor until it's nice and snug to hold the valve there. Works on other motors.

This motor has already eaten more money than it's worth. It's a heap, but I don't have many options currently.

Not including the CV bolts, clutch cable, shift linkage, accel cable, hose clamps etc. The entire drive train is held in by 8 bolts. I can also fudge things by undoing them and a couple of other bits and pieces and just lowering the everything a bit. Or I can pull out the motor. Either way, I have options. Now I think of it I think I have a clear shot at the heads anyway as the crank hasn't moved and generally speaking every boxer's heads are in the same relative position. It'd be a PITA but achievable.

RatCamper · Post by **RatCamper** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:42 pm

got in there while I was typing, Steptoe. good to know. I don't have a spark plug hole to compressor adapter yet. yep the EA81 only has them on the inlets. i found an online store with them for a bit under $4 each. 3 available. typical.

littlewhiteute · Post by **littlewhiteute** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:26 pm

RatCamper wrote: I was going to feed a heap of nylon rope into the cylinder at about bdc through the sparky hole, and rotate the motor until it's nice and snug to hold the valve there. Works on other motors.

If you do the rope trick, you are better off starting the piston at about 40-50 degrees BTDC, fill up the cylinder with your rope and then get the piston to near TDC.

If your piston is still halfway up the bore, you'll push it back down as soon as you push on the valves.

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:52 pm

if too far from the post office - can make one from an old [or new] spark plug, smack out the ceramic USE EYE PROTECTION and braze in a pipe to accept compressed air

"an engine or project swallow more money than what it's worth "? Welcome to the club !!

Silverbullet · Post by **Silverbullet** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:03 pm

Just make sure you get everything (ie rope) out of the cylinder before you start it again

I did my inlet valve seals just yesterday, but with the heads off. The hardest part was getting the seals themselves off of the valve guides. They are stuck on there extremely bloody tight. I ended up completely destroying the seal before I got it off, and that was on a spacious bench! Will be even harder inside a bay window(?) engine bay. Also the seals need to be an exact distance from where the springs contact the head, I think its 23.3mm (could be wrong) from the head to the top of the seal. An 11mm socket fits over the seal perfectly, gently tap with a hammer to get the seal down to the right height without damaging it and you're done.

Good luck!

RatCamper · Post by **RatCamper** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:10 pm

steptoe wrote:if too far from the post office - can make one from an old [or new] spark plug, smack out the ceramic USE EYE PROTECTION and braze in a pipe to accept compressed air

"an engine or project swallow more money than what it's worth "? Welcome to the club !!

I'm afraid I'm already a bitter veteran of that club

One example is the old motor. I spent six years fighting with that thing. last year I ripped the VW motor out in disgust and put the EA81 in. The motor may be smokey but it's strong. That's why I'm hoping I'm right about it being the seals.

post office is nearby ...for once. Where can I get the adapter, or what is it actually called?
Got a box of barely used, half dead spark plugs, but nothing to braze with. Welding is a different story.

littlewhiteute: Good advice. Thanks for that.

Silverbullet: you're scaring me!
The seals were probably baked and glued on by fossilized oil.
May I ask where you got the new seals?
Def. be harder in an engine bay. Well, slightly underneath it. Like I said I may have to drop it, but that's no biggie. I wouldn't even need to undo the axles if I put the back up on ramps before starting. I just need to use my amazing drivetrain jack!

It does the job, barely. Long story not worth telling.

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:44 pm

those scissor jacks have some use afterall!!

Hey, don't you all like how Silverbullet is giving advice already

olddog642 · Post by **olddog642** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:45 pm

Here is a link to a valve spring compressor and also air fitting.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VALVE-SPRING ... 9084665067

Hylton:twisted:

Silverbullet · Post by **Silverbullet** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:00 am

Baked on is probable in my case

I got the new seals in a gasket kit with headgaskets, rocker cover gaskets, exhaust and inlet manifold gaskets and a few O rings for $90, which probably isn't much help to you

That thing is amazing! Can't quite picture where it goes though...

YouTube · Post by **El_Freddo** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:51 am

steptoe wrote:Hey, don't you all like how Silverbullet is giving advice already

Yeah that's pretty good! Silverbullet, you should be proud mate!

Silverbullet wrote:That thing is amazing! Can't quite picture where it goes though...

The longer arms hook under the spring that sits against the head, the shorter (silver) arms push against the top of the spring, most likely including the retaining washer as well. Looks like a great tool!

I'm also guessing that with the air compression adaptors you'll know how much blow by you have or if you've got a leaking valve...

Cheers

Bennie

RatCamper · Post by **RatCamper** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:44 am

That tool looks functionally similar to the one I posted a link for. I did, didn't I? Anyway that one comes with the fittings which is good.

I haven't done an actual compression test on the motor yet. Delaying the inevitable because I know any variation bugs the hell out of me. I suppose I should.
The valves are probably pretty good. The vac test I did yesterday showed consistent operation. Believe me, I know what engine problems on a vac gauge look like

Scissor jacks have heaps of uses! the only thing I won't use them for is jacking up a car. I used one against the side of a Holden engine to change a mount. And with some bracing against the rear wheel wells and the back of the boot, fixed a badly squashed in back end on a Magna. They are good for where you need a lot of push in a small space.

If you are wondering about the fantastic, retail quality jack trolley I made, the single jack with the U cradles the transmission and the two other jacks support the crossbar that VWs have. My Subie motor has one now too. Trouble is the muffler is in the way. Might have to relocate the jacks a bit.

Silverbullet, where did you get the kit? Sounds like a fine plan B at a reasonable price.

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:31 am

His friendly machine shop supplied all his bits

RatCamper · Post by **RatCamper** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:57 am

Well, I'm SOL then.

I get my generic bits and pieces from a farm / industrial supply store and specific bits from the local mechanic who is a Repco agent that gets things shipped there. Repco is enough to have me running away tail between my legs sometimes. Usually little bits and pieces or parts for the Ford. imagine that, eh?

Silverbullet · Post by **Silverbullet** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:59 am

steptoe wrote:His friendly machine shop supplied all his bits

That's true but it's a kit you could probably get anywhere that sells car parts. The kit is Durapro GSDG740D

RatCamper · Post by **RatCamper** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:10 pm

Silverbullet wrote:That's true but it's a kit you could probably get anywhere that sells car parts. The kit is Durapro GSDG740D

I like part numbers. Thanks! It dodges the whole conversation that goes like this:

me: "I'm after part X"
parts person: "Sure. What vehicle is it from?"
me: "um well you see..."

Compression test results are in. It's a motor!

1: 190
2: 173
3: 188
4: 172

Definitely no dead cylinders there. Either my gauge is badly out, which I hope isn't the case because it's one of the nice ones with the attachments etc, it's full of coke, or someone has done a high compression build on it.
Test was done on a cold engine, cylinders "dry", no plugs in, 8 compression strokes each, accelerator flat to the floor.

1/3 side plugs were really oily. not quite so bad on the 2/4 side.

After the comp. test I let it run for a bit for the battery's sake. I noticed it starts smoking now when the engine temperature gets up near operating.
the really odd thing is I can't quite pin down the smell of the exhaust. It's possible it could be an oil / coolant blend. If so it could either be an HG, or one of the manifold gaskets which I recently replaced along with the manifold.

It does make me wonder again about something. When I got the setup, I noticed the header tank had little bits of mayo all over the inside and what looked like the little metal filings from those metal and blue goo based radiator stop leak bottles. I haven't seen a trace of mayo made by the motor since I put it in, and there is no sign of oil / coolant cross contamination but I really have to wonder.

littlewhiteute · Post by **littlewhiteute** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:22 pm

RatCamper wrote:I like part numbers. Thanks! It dodges the whole conversation that goes like this:

me: "I'm after part X"
parts person: "Sure. What vehicle is it from?"
me: "um well you see..."

Compression test results are in. It's a motor!

1: 190
2: 173
3: 188
4: 172

Definitely no dead cylinders there. Either my gauge is badly out, which I hope isn't the case because it's one of the nice ones with the attachments etc, it's full of coke, or someone has done a high compression build on it.
Test was done on a cold engine, cylinders "dry", no plugs in, 8 compression strokes each, accelerator flat to the floor.

1/3 side plugs were really oily. not quite so bad on the 2/4 side.

After the comp. test I let it run for a bit for the battery's sake. I noticed it starts smoking now when the engine temperature gets up near operating.
the really odd thing is I can't quite pin down the smell of the exhaust. It's possible it could be an oil / coolant blend. If so it could either be an HG, or one of the manifold gaskets which I recently replaced along with the manifold.

It does make me wonder again about something. When I got the setup, I noticed the header tank had little bits of mayo all over the inside and what looked like the little metal filings from those metal and blue goo based radiator stop leak bottles. I haven't seen a trace of mayo made by the motor since I put it in, and there is no sign of oil / coolant cross contamination but I really have to wonder.

No dead cylinders?

I would be checking again, as 8 strokes is too many.

172 psi is just under 10% lower than 190 psi, (worst to best).

190 and 188 on same bank, 173 and 172 on other bank.

Is that a pattern?

Have you done a head check for CO content in the cooling system?