Lowering Springs, Struts & Shockers for a Vortex ?

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:26 pm

same silly tired here too so will see if I dreamt about EJ testing in wide bodied Alcyclone tomoz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Fury · Post by **Fury** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:32 pm

I took some measurements earlier, with photos. depending on time tomorrow, ill upload them. night

mmmm ... wide body mouldings ... how ... yes... I could do that... nearly dream time...

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:16 am

waiting on a Fury email addy to my PM box, meanwhile will go out to take some measures

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:29 am

226mm FRONT centre of transverse bolt (LCA bush bolt)

230mm REAR bottom of crossmember pipe

215 Front measured off the flat of the under sill
230 Rear measured off the flat of the under sill

Nothing of RTA measures make sense on the factory specs !

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:19 am

I may have got the impression that the is a difference in NSW RTA specs between PT and FT 4WD Turbo. There isn't, just the 4WD's are on their own as Variant 3. The turbo FWD and NA FWD are together with suspension specs.

Looking at the " Minimum vertical measurement wheel centre to wheel arch"

using the 13"s as a control - the FWDs are 40mm less than the 4WD in the rears, 35mm less in the front. I might just look at where it would be as if it was a FWD and compare.

Someone in here, nncoolg perhaps said they had, or seen a Vortex with two mounting points for lower rear shock bolt??

What I have here at the moment with my 130mm shocks, no reversed brackets, borrowed unidentified springs _ I have got a levelish sill - all part of the lines of things.

These RTA specs need a good looking over .

The suspension data itself shows no corelation to Subarus manuals figures, for eg

86 4WD XT front 255 mm +12/ -22
255+12 = 267mm max, 255-20= 235mm min

Subaru says for 86 4WD XT rear 250mm +10/-20 works out figures in head.....
[250+10 = 260mm max, 250-20=230mm min]

I can't see where they are getting 407mm front, and 355mm rear nom. measures from where to where?

Post by **TOONGA** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:37 am

steptoe wrote:
Someone in here, nncoolg perhaps said they had, or seen a Vortex with two mounting points for lower rear shock bolt??

That was me here showpost.php?p=175520&postcount=5

in this thread showthread.php?p=175520#post175520

and I don't really like the way it was done.

TOONGA

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:43 am

REAR END

Working things out backwards (the beast approach for my brain) here, using 195/50-15" at the moment, they are smaller than 185/70-13" .

Using Subarus measure points I get 231mm from base of rear suspension pipe crossmember to level floor. Subaru FSM has 230mm as its minimum (near empty tank too)

THAT IS IT - I am there!! With the 15" combo it gives a 360mm wheel centre to wheel arch vertical measure. Where the hell did they get 325mm to type in the freakin' box? The 285mm for the FWD brings arch lip to top of 15" tyre- that is lookin too low??

I' m gonna fit the 185/70-13 to see how much the 360 figure changes.

It might be to get correct factory minimums for XT 4WD turbo or otherwise the trick may be genuine sedan springs (one aftermarket supplier has same spring for both wagon and sedan but different rate by Subie)

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:59 am

I reckon if to set a body up to the RTA spec of 380mm front and 325mm rear - the sill would be about 20 or 30 mm lower at the rear than front sill - a sagged look !

Those figures I have been chasing now do not make sense!
Blame the beauracrats ??

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:03 am

Asfar as the front suspension measures up between front LCA bolt centre to floor I get 226mm - the FSM is for 4WD XT 255 with a minimum of 22 drop so 233 - my 226 is 7mm lower than spec

(

)

If I were to drop the rear by corresponding 7 mm with say a full tank and driver the sill would be almost perfetc level ......

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:09 am

Try to use a calming soft colour....all the bleedin' stuffing around, botherng my brain, other people, it brings to mind a warning an RTA trainer representative told my blue slip mate when assessing a vehicle for inspection in relation to the entire application - the car, the customer, what you see and what you hear from the customers mouth

goes like this......

"Believe none of what you hear and only half what you see"

I reckon this exercise is a bloody good example

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:48 am

Been out to measure a few things

To swap between the new 195/50-15 and (still half tread after 40,000km) 185/70 13 and measure the floor to wheel centre, floor to arch - not a mm difference!!

Measuring the unidentified factory spring out of my 4WD sedan* spring compressed , between cup/seat outers of a 130mm shock 290mm fitted in car compresses to 210mm with empty tank car weight settled after jack release and settled to normal stance. Prior to settle body the whel arch measure was 15mm higher. I measured my diff clearance to ground - 150mm

* fitted to 4WD sedan with 150mm shock that would have compressed same spring more, changing its rate - great ride, height etc in the sedan.
It may be time to try a wagon spring in a 130mm shock and fitted up to the Vortex to see how it measures up. The 130mm is again gonna likely change its character from being in a 140 or 150mm shock

still follow???

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:02 pm

Fury wrote:This data is from the workshop manual? which edition?
how do they compare with the RTA specs? I guess you posted them earlier - I should go take a look..

I have an an 85MY and a 88 fsm, ill see if I can find the details ( rummages through storage tubs, and dives into the abiss... )

A note here if you are looking at that 325mm for Variant 3 rear - later on in this saga you will read I have achieved the factory rear suspension minimum of 230mm measured between ground and lowest part of suspension tube at the side/end for the 4WD Vortex and that vertical wheel centre to wheel arch measurement is 360mm. There is absolutely no way the 325mm is true for this car - shall I be diplomatic and say it is a typographical error and leave it at that?

Fury · Post by **Fury** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:11 pm

My old 86 FWD. Stock std suspension, but with 14's (same overall dia as 13's)
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa16 ... ortex1.jpg

Strut top, with camber / castor adjustment
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa16 ... AG0110.jpg

Rear of mine yesterday - 30 cm to wheel arch from centre of hub
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa16 ... AG0111.jpg

Maximum of rear travel which is still OK for handling. Much higher and the rear can become unpredictable - depending on throttle.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa16 ... AG0113.jpg

About as low as I can practically go
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa16 ... 010006.jpg

As far as the double lower rear shock mounts... I have heard about this a long time ago, but the medications I am now on, I can't remember a damn thing about it!

OH - and it passed with 17's - which were never an option - and wasn't noticed. The fact that thew are factory, with subi inserts probably helped originality...

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:29 pm

I'll get in and look, but comment on conversions, whole set of rules like suspension and brakes of donor must accompany the engine, guess wheels too and may depend on attitude test and quality of workmanship - discretion of the inspectors

blue slip and roadside

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:36 pm

Gosh, so you have 320 in in pic, 300 yesterday, and lower again on the waters edge.

All look sweet low

I will keep my fronts as they are, try to achieve what I have now in rear of Vort 360mm when I return bits to other car and buy some bits. Looks like the Suzuki springs will be too low in the bum, and nuisance to squeeze eyes to fit.

Thanks Chris and others for reading, input etc

I am not expecting go kart handling.....

Fury · Post by **Fury** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:47 pm

steptoe wrote:Gosh, so you have 320 in in pic, 300 yesterday, and lower again on the waters edge.

All look sweet low

I will keep my fronts as they are, try to achieve what I have now in rear of Vort 360mm when I return bits to other car and buy some bits. Looks like the Suzuki springs will be too low in the bum, and nuisance to squeeze eyes to fit.

Thanks Chris and others for reading, input etc

I am not expecting go kart handling.....

Just remember that the wheels are larger than yours, so they fill the wheel wells more. The first photo, the blue and silver 86, gives you an idea of near stock heights. so going by appearances only, if comparatively yours looks similar, it should be in the ballpark. The air shocks were 40mm higher, and just "looked" too high , but the original mags, kind of counteracted the height ( they were the motion mags in 13" and came in 14" too I believe)

so add another 30mm on, as your hubs will be in a lower position

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:34 pm

Yeah , thanks, but not looking at your rims, just the measures from wheel centre to arch - we know that is the springs we are measuring.

Think I need to find lowered rear coils for an RX L Series

anyone watching got easy found links to these?
they be appreciated

think Kings listed lowered rears ? Pedders only offer some models of L s a lowered spring for the front online selection anyway

FujiFan · Post by **FujiFan** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:37 pm

Although this belongs on your thread Johnno, I had a look at an 89 Leone Royale today and noted the rear springs had a yellow (I think) dot over an orange one. Looked like original springs and typical height and clearance for a FWD L sedan.

J

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:28 pm

Ah, we are getting somewhere here thanks J for going to those lengths, looking suspicous and all in the street , or was it a wreck somewhere? Please tell.

Spent some time cruising carparks Saturday arvo looking for a Leone FWD. Saw just one L Wagon in all the looking.

Fury · Post by **Fury** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:37 pm

I will measure up my spare set of Eibach springs. same diameter as they are a coilover ( from the rear of L wagon and Vortex ) but shorter and stiffer.

I also just remembered - I know where a set of genuine Fwd Vortex rears are. I would have to confirm, and what they would want for them. wont be talking to them until Tuesday though.