2010 Diesel Drivetrain shudder

Not Happy Jan !! · Post by **Not Happy Jan !!** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:34 pm

43000 K's and the clutch has been replaced ! New master cylinder on order ex Japan. A few slight engine shudders but nothing like it was however as the warm weather is approaching I am expecting it to come back and haunt us all again !

Damn you Subaru for building a great car with this problem !

StrontiumSteel · Post by **StrontiumSteel** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:15 pm

So far just over 8000k's and not a single shudder. Live in Alice Springs and most everyday is over 30c (39 tomorrow) so not sure if heat is the only factor..?

pitrack_1 · Post by **pitrack_1** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:48 am

Well, our first 2 days over 25C in a row and it's back: I've had my fist noticeable regens in months. They seemingly disappeared over our Canberra winter, nothing in the drivability or the instamatic-fuel-econ-readout to indicate any.

Today and yesterday (well Sat and Sun, not early Mon am

driving generated power saps, plus muted (but noticeable) clunking/thunking as something cut in and out depending on the throttle and revs. It feels a little like a worn bush under accel/decel, but worn bushes don't sap your power or fuel economy.

It was annoying enough for me to keep provoking it by cycling the throttle, annoying myself even further. To go with it is the power sap indicative of some major engine map/tune/setup change.

The only other option I can think of is that it's the air-con cutting in and out depending on the throttle position, but A/C doesn't sap THAT much power (or fuel).

Also has anyone noticed that during these periods throttle response may be OK upto, say, 1/2 throttle but really dies- as in decreases performance- above that? It's almost like an old mistuned carby engine.

tasla · Post by **tasla** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:55 am

It is now between 6 and 8 degrees every morning here in the Netherlands, and I must admit that the engine is doing better. Over the weekend I had it shuddering only once as the temperature was around 16 degrees.

It is just weird.

discopotato03 · Post by **discopotato03** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:38 am

I think the way to get the manufacturer to try harder is to advertise everywhere that these Subaru "oilers" are having all sorts of driveability issues and prospective buyers need to know it .

The net is a great way to get info out there globally . Make it known on every site everywhere that these things have issues and if customers don't want them to consider looking elsewhere .
Nothing spooks a manufacturer more than sales resistance because it can break them very easily .
I feel sorry for Zoob in a way because these reactors have been forced upon them and they are obviously struggling to meet emissions targets affordably .

I look at cars a bit differently to many people and unless I suddenly became filthy filthy rich I wouldn't own a brand new one , by choice not financial constraints .
Because mechanics have been friends of mine for a long time I look harder at the serviceability of cars and to me a current model bastardised electronic controlled diesel is a nightmare . IMO diesels were marketed to be a soild reliable durable workhorse and made lots of torque without many revs .
Simple and easy to service at home ie oil/filters/the odd bleed if you ran it out of fuel . Sounds a bit like the original standard Brumby concept doesn't it ?
I reckon the last thing a cocky on the farms going to want is a a diesel car thats run by black boxes that has to be driven like a petrol car so it doesn't cough and fart and jerk around . He hasn't got time to be back and forth to the dealership so the old Tojo tray/ute/troopy will live longer and he'll be happy to put the missus in it cause they know its going to get them where they want to go .

To me a Subaru diesel is like a Prius , pretending to be green while catering to the Browns . I'd rather use more juice and have less dramas in life , oh and unlike the cow in the diesel Terrotory ad I don't do social networking nor feel the need to do a thousand kay 50 "friends" fest on a single tank of fuel .

A .

Brumby Kid · Post by **Brumby Kid** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:51 am

I havn't read the whole thread and dont know much detail, but it sounds like the engine might be detonating, or pinging. This used to happed in my dads old old lancer up a long hill. Thoughts?

Cheers Cam

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:18 am

Read it Cam and you will understand a bit more

Brumby Kid · Post by **Brumby Kid** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:45 pm

Yep, i read a bit more, sounds like pre detonation. What happened to dad is your going up a hill in say 3rd or 4th. You then lose speed, and it starts to pre detonate (ping). The only solution is to change down and hope you can get your revs up high enough. A number of posts on here say they have the same circumstances as what I am discribing. Have you totally ruled this out?

Falco80 · Post by **Falco80** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:15 pm

pitrack_1 wrote:Well, our first 2 days over 25C in a row and it's back: I've had my fist noticeable regens in months. They seemingly disappeared over our Canberra winter, nothing in the drivability or the instamatic-fuel-econ-readout to indicate any.

Today and yesterday (well Sat and Sun, not early Mon am driving generated power saps, plus muted (but noticeable) clunking/thunking as something cut in and out depending on the throttle and revs. It feels a little like a worn bush under accel/decel, but worn bushes don't sap your power or fuel economy.

It was annoying enough for me to keep provoking it by cycling the throttle, annoying myself even further. To go with it is the power sap indicative of some major engine map/tune/setup change.

The only other option I can think of is that it's the air-con cutting in and out depending on the throttle position, but A/C doesn't sap THAT much power (or fuel).

Also has anyone noticed that during these periods throttle response may be OK upto, say, 1/2 throttle but really dies- as in decreases performance- above that? It's almost like an old mistuned carby engine.

I am now suffering similiar issues with my diesel, and i've had a mild shudder occur a couple of times on the highway in the last 3000k's. Ever since i had the 37500km service done about a month ago the engine has run differently. You can just tell the computer is busy doing stuff while you are driving.
Between the 25k and 37.5k services it was a joy to drive. It was responsive, punchy and had terrific economy. Now it drives like a pig. At first start up in the morning it stutters and feels like it is starving of fuel when at light throttle loads. It needs more throttle input to get moving at low speeds than it used to. It suffers from the power sapping lag regardless if you are on boost or not. The economy has also gotten slightly worse. I asked the service guys what had been done and they said "we've done nothing, just reset the oil dilution". If the ECU has t re-learn every time after a service, well that is just crap.

discopotato03 wrote: Because mechanics have been friends of mine for a long time I look harder at the serviceability of cars and to me a current model bastardised electronic controlled diesel is a nightmare . IMO diesels were marketed to be a soild reliable durable workhorse and made lots of torque without many revs .
Simple and easy to service at home ie oil/filters/the odd bleed if you ran it out of fuel . Sounds a bit like the original standard Brumby concept doesn't it ?
I reckon the last thing a cocky on the farms going to want is a a diesel car thats run by black boxes that has to be driven like a petrol car so it doesn't cough and fart and jerk around . He hasn't got time to be back and forth to the dealership so the old Tojo tray/ute/troopy will live longer and he'll be happy to put the missus in it cause they know its going to get them where they want to go .

To me a Subaru diesel is like a Prius , pretending to be green while catering to the Browns . I'd rather use more juice and have less dramas in life , oh and unlike the cow in the diesel Terrotory ad I don't do social networking nor feel the need to do a thousand kay 50 "friends" fest on a single tank of fuel .

A .

I mostly agree mate. What's the point of changing the oil in these if you can't reset the oil-dilution ratio yourself? (Maybe there is a way, i'm not sure.)
These new-school diesels do not have the torque many people associate with a diesel. Off idle they are pathetic. I need a run-up to get up my steep driveway and pretty much ride-the-clutch all the way up. My old diesel landcruiser won't win any land-speed records, but it idles up it easily. These engines need to be on-boost to be any good. Sadly i don't feel that "solid-reliable workhorse" can be used to describe these new electronic diesels. I'd probably call them "fragile", fuel-efficiant....sure, but definitely fragile. They are not the sort of car i would buy second-hand, not knowing the history.

Subyroo · Post by **Subyroo** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:11 pm

Falco80 wrote:Ever since i had the 37500km service done about a month ago the engine has run differently. You can just tell the computer is busy doing stuff while you are driving.

Have you been having it serviced at Gary Cricks?

Falco80 · Post by **Falco80** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:31 pm

Subyroo wrote:Have you been having it serviced at Gary Cricks?

No mate, down in Brisbane. A dealer on the sunshine coast would have been a lot closer & easier.

discopotato03 · Post by **discopotato03** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:04 am

Falco80 wrote:I am now suffering similiar issues with my diesel, and i've had a mild shudder occur a couple of times on the highway in the last 3000k's. Ever since i had the 37500km service done about a month ago the engine has run differently. You can just tell the computer is busy doing stuff while you are driving.
Between the 25k and 37.5k services it was a joy to drive. It was responsive, punchy and had terrific economy. Now it drives like a pig. At first start up in the morning it stutters and feels like it is starving of fuel when at light throttle loads. It needs more throttle input to get moving at low speeds than it used to. It suffers from the power sapping lag regardless if you are on boost or not. The economy has also gotten slightly worse. I asked the service guys what had been done and they said "we've done nothing, just reset the oil dilution". If the ECU has t re-learn every time after a service, well that is just crap.

I mostly agree mate. What's the point of changing the oil in these if you can't reset the oil-dilution ratio yourself? (Maybe there is a way, i'm not sure.)
These new-school diesels do not have the torque many people associate with a diesel. Off idle they are pathetic. I need a run-up to get up my steep driveway and pretty much ride-the-clutch all the way up. My old diesel landcruiser won't win any land-speed records, but it idles up it easily. These engines need to be on-boost to be any good. Sadly i don't feel that "solid-reliable workhorse" can be used to describe these new electronic diesels. I'd probably call them "fragile", fuel-efficiant....sure, but definitely fragile. They are not the sort of car i would buy second-hand, not knowing the history.

I occassionally drive a couple of late Isuzu trucks with these electronically controlled and reactor equipt exhausts . For a turbo diesel they are not terribly torquey well at least until they get some boost into them .
Nope , if I wanted a real diesel I'd buy an older one and if necessary rebuild it . To me the whole idea of the things was to be reliable stump pullers without carburettors or EFI or even ignition systems . If you "strain" all the low end torque out of a diesel then its a bloody hopeless failure in my book . Adding electronics and problematic tuning throws away the last vestiges of practicality so I have to say "why would you bother ?" .
If I really wanted a late Sube , never going to happen either , it would be a petrol fired one knowing that its a whole lot less grief even if it does use a bit more juice . If you got one a couple of years old then you save a fortune and can afford to pay for the petrol .

Diesel Zoob , not on your life cheers A .

tasla · Post by **tasla** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:51 pm

Yesterday I had something different. A White cloud appeared behind me when the shudders occurred. This morning I went to the Subaru dealership and their main mechanic (the one to witness the shudders) told me that it was a good thing, because the engine did a regeneration. He told me that FHI told them that the shudders problem is caused by the exhaust system being clogged and he is now doing force regeneration, which should clear the problem.

I hope it will.

NachaLuva · Post by **NachaLuva** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:50 pm

tasla wrote:Yesterday I had something different. A White cloud appeared behind me when the shudders occurred. This morning I went to the Subaru dealership and their main mechanic (the one to witness the shudders) told me that it was a good thing, because the engine did a regeneration. He told me that FHI told them that the shudders problem is caused by the exhaust system being clogged and he is now doing force regeneration, which should clear the problem.

I hope it will.

How does the exhaust get clogged?! Apart from the old spud in the tailpipe gag that is lol

Good luck, hope it fixes it

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:54 pm

White Cloud , sounds like a native American

white is lean or misfire in a Diesel (or you got some petrol in the mix). I understand a regen to be a richening of the mix so it generates heat - wouldn't that be black smoke?

Can just imagine what will happen to the exhausts on these once warranty is out

tasla · Post by **tasla** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:15 pm

Well, I got the report. The mechanic forced the regen and drove the car for about 100km. He said everything was fine. So we'll see. I'm supposed to be back in the shop for the winter ties fitting on Tuesday, so I'll report any issues then (hopefully none).

Cheers.

pitrack_1 · Post by **pitrack_1** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:01 am

steptoe wrote:White Cloud , sounds like a native American white is lean or misfire in a Diesel (or you got some petrol in the mix). I understand a regen to be a richening of the mix so it generates heat - wouldn't that be black smoke?

White 'smoke' could be:
a) Water condensation. Max Temp yesterday (27th Oct) in the Hague was somewhere mid teens C (~60F) with ~70-85% RH. So the white cloud could have been condensation. It happens in Canberra in winter even with warmed-up vehicles.
b) Water in the exhaust, e.g. through an engine problem such as a cracked cylinder head or blown head gasket.
c) Fuel (diesel) in the exhaust system. This tallies with the DPF regen theory.

Black smoke generally indicates incomplete combustion and is what the DPF is meant to trap anyway...

Some generalised info at http://www.dieselsmoke.com.au/

steptoe wrote: Can just imagine what will happen to the exhausts on these once warranty is out

So can I. And someone priced DPF replacement elsewhere at (I think) ~3000 Euro. ANd they will be consumable items replaceable after a few years- the problem is they will regen and remove the soot, but cannot remove the small amounts of contaminant ash that will slowly build up over time. So eventually the DPF may become clogged with non-regeneratable ash and require replacement.

My hope is DPFs will be like catalytic converters quickly became- effective whole-of-life components, so they won't clog until after the vehicle is reasonably expected to be dead anyway. And/or they will attain a reasonable price point for replacement as production gears up.

Otherwise I'm outta the Forester diesel and into another vehicle! The new generation petrols such as the Mazda Sky-activ and VW 1.4l twin-charged petrol engines seem to combine the flexible performance of petrol with the economy and torquiness of diesels. I'll wait and see though for some long-term reliability given the complexity of the engines. The Oz sky-activ has been derated due to Oz's (derated) standard ULP (91RON). And there's apparently a sky-activ diesel on the way too. Just perhaps these petrols could (ahem) drive the diesels back away from the passenger vehicle market again esp. given diesel is more expensive than petrol.

tasla · Post by **tasla** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:06 pm

Well, weekend is over and the problem is still there; not that I expected anything else. I'll report all off this to Subaru service and we'll see...

reefer · Post by **reefer** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:49 pm

Any update from affected owners?

I have been looking at the Diesel for our next car.

I have it from first hand from a service manager that this issue is known and easily fixed.

I'd be interested to see what others have heard from their service managers.

tasla · Post by **tasla** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:30 pm

Well, the news is that my car is scheduled to have a EGR valve replaced on Monday. Hopefully, this will solve the problem.

Cheers.
a.

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2010 Diesel Drivetrain shudder

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