Tracking down a cooling issue - MY Brumby

YouTube · Post by **El_Freddo** » Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:41 pm

G'day all,

As previously discussed in Sunnie the brumby's thread he's been having some cooling issues.

What I'm going to have a look at in one hit first is:

Thermostat
New water pump
Radiator rodded

While that's going on I'm thinking of removing the intake manifold and replacing it with the original one that came on Ruby Scoo - I've read up about it on USMB and there's going to be some messing around to get it right but it should work properly in the end. I'm also suspect of the intake manifold gaskets that are on him at the moment.

Other things I'm going to check - compression while the intake is off (easiest access to the spark holes) and I'm going to remove the bull bar and shave off a few areas as this is one big air restriction, plus the addition of the spot lights haven't helped! Under the bull bar there's about a 1 and a half inch gap for air to move through over the radiator... I'm looking at cutting out that section to increase it to maybe as much as 4 inches.

Basically I'm not convinced that it's a head gasket issue - but probably won't know more until the compression check is done. There's no coolant in the oil and vice versa, but he does loose coolant on a long drive, temp will usually rise more after an hour's drive on the open road.

Is there anything else I should be checking while I'm doing all this work? I'm hoping by messing around with these areas the problem is taken care of.

Oh, and the reason for the L series intake: larger carbie from factory, WORKING AUTO CHOKE, pretty much the same pollution gear as what's on there at the moment, both intakes are a 1988 build

Cheers

Bennie

RSR 555 · Post by **RSR 555** » Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:54 pm

I'm going with inlet manifold gaskets.. very common problem with the EA81s.

Just remember that like all EA's, the bolts 99% of the time get siezed up in the holes of the manifold. Lots of WD40/CRC helps a lot

spike · Post by **spike** » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:43 pm

El_Freddo wrote:G'day all,
While that's going on I'm thinking of removing the intake manifold and replacing it with the original one that came on Ruby Scoo - I've read up about it on USMB and there's going to be some messing around to get it right but it should work properly in the end. I'm also suspect of the intake manifold gaskets that are on him at the moment.

not too sure about the heads on the ea81 but the 82s have stupid blocked passes within the head (as well as the passage for pree heating in the inlet manifold)

im going to join theese up to get some cross flow instead of making a bloody hotspot with no movement
maybe an option??

phantomD · Post by **phantomD** » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:51 pm

Make sure you DO sort out the issue or you WILL end up with a head gasket issue!! Now that you know you have a problem you can't even trust your temperature gauge - so who knows how much it's overheating at all?

YouTube · Post by **El_Freddo** » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:29 pm

RSR 555 wrote:I'm going with inlet manifold gaskets.. very common problem with the EA81s.

Just remember that like all EA's, the bolts 99% of the time get siezed up in the holes of the manifold. Lots of WD40/CRC helps a lot

I didn't realise that this was a common problem with the EA81's... and I was thinking about those inlet bolt on the drive (in the VT) on the way back up to benders - I shuddered at the thought of Murphy rearing his ugly head again!

spike wrote:not too sure about the heads on the ea81 but the 82s have stupid blocked passes within the head (as well as the passage for pree heating in the inlet manifold)

im going to join theese up to get some cross flow instead of making a bloody hotspot with no movement
maybe an option??

I'm not 100% sure that I remotely understand what you've said here spike. I'm only swapping the inlet manifold from the EA82, not the heads as well! Forget EA82 heads!!

phantomD wrote:Make sure you DO sort out the issue or you WILL end up with a head gasket issue!! Now that you know you have a problem you can't even trust your temperature gauge - so who knows how much it's overheating at all?

Thanks PhantomD - Since coming home from shep with the temp up high on the 40+ degree day towing the trailer I've left Sunnie in the yard until I have time to sort his issues out - got a list going with him too!

I'll let you know how I go, I'm only info collecting at the moment so it could be another week or two before I get to start some work on him!

Cheers

Bennie

Silverbullet · Post by **Silverbullet** » Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:05 pm

Good luck! if those manifold bolts snap you're in for a total pain

When the ones on my current engine did I just swapped the entire cylinder heads over, they needed new gaskets anyway

They should be alright they're not that old...well at least not as old as mine were.

YouTube · Post by **El_Freddo** » Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:13 pm

Silverbullet wrote:Good luck! if those manifold bolts snap you're in for a total pain

Thanks for your optimism!

I'm drawing up a game plan in my head in the event of bolts snapping, it goes something like this: Once the inlet manifold is removed:

Cut the remaining bolts as short as possible then carefully grind them level with the face of the inlet manifold mounting face.

Tap in a centre punch mark, drill a pilot hole then

I'll either drill out the remainder of the bolt carefully then tap in a new thread and helicoil it.

A new set of bolts with some thread treatment on them should do the job for a fix.

It won't be easy to get it right but if I take my time and carefully do things it should come up ok.

Cheers

Bennie

Smokey · Post by **Smokey** » Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:19 pm

Am I missing something? Have the bolts snapped already or are we talking hypothetically...

Silverbullet · Post by **Silverbullet** » Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:29 pm

Smokey wrote:Am I missing something? Have the bolts snapped already or are we talking hypothetically...

Hypothetical I believe

Sounds like a plan Bennie, the bolts are quite soft I think but the alloy heads are even softer so if you drift off center with the drill you'll need to helicoil it for sure. And please be careful with the pilot drill; the reason I had my heads swapped is because a 2.5mm drill snapped off inside the bolt on one of them...and I wasn't holding the drill

All hypothetical of course, I'm sure you will have absolutely no problems at all.

stenno · Post by **stenno** » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:10 pm

Any engine will get hot if the radiator isnt doing its job. Ensure that any airflow getting to it isnt going around by using foam between the radiator and the support panel, ensure its bled of air properly.
How much frontal area is the bullbar and spot lights blocking compared to stock? have you taken them off to see if it still gets hot when driving?

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:22 pm

sounds like Bennie just wants to play - some preventative maintenance

Have I missed something - the overheating characteristics - Or should I have been reading Sunnies Sagas more often ?

You gonna be real pissed if you do all that work and find it was a pooey old $13 radiator cap not keeping the pressure up.

My ute has not overheating but not keeping as coola sexpected , running a serviced rad but unsure if some cores been closed off for repair, new everything including aftermarket thermostat with its smaller orifice, waiting on the TT2041 170 and 180 ordered in to play with and see then.

RSR 555 · Post by **RSR 555** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:49 am

Stenno and Steptoe make some very good point too Bennie.

IF (and notice that's a big) you're unlucky and the bolts break, then try and pry the manifold off.. once it's off, then the bolts usually come out easy.. they tend just to be siezed in the manifold itself, not the head.

But lets hopes it's just a cap

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:21 am

bastards still SNAP from the corrosion in manifold and still need to be removed from head without its hex head offering any assistance. Maybe an oil hole drilled in from the side ??

YouTube · Post by **El_Freddo** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:16 pm

Silverbullet wrote:Sounds like a plan Bennie, the bolts are quite soft I think but the alloy heads are even softer so if you drift off center with the drill you'll need to helicoil it for sure. And please be careful with the pilot drill; the reason I had my heads swapped is because a 2.5mm drill snapped off inside the bolt on one of them...

Yeah I'm aware of this! I've done it a few times over the years. My brother did the same trick with an easy out, had to drill around that or something enough for a more expensive easy out to do the job as the first should have!

stenno wrote:How much frontal area is the bullbar and spot lights blocking compared to stock? have you taken them off to see if it still gets hot when driving?

Well, that's the fun of it all - getting the air in there in the first place, this is how it looks, not quite a front on image but you'll get the idea:

steptoe wrote:sounds like Bennie just wants to play - some preventative maintenance Have I missed something - the overheating characteristics - Or should I have been reading Sunnies Sagas more often ?

Odd characteristics Jonno - radiator cap has been replaced. It just gets hot, pushes the coolant out and gets hotter - the coolant loss though isn't like what I've seen from a head gasket before which is why I'm finding this confusing and thus why I want to try out a few things first! And no, I've already got enough to play with at the moment!

RSR 555 wrote:IF (and notice that's a big) you're unlucky and the bolts break, then try and pry the manifold off.. once it's off, then the bolts usually come out easy.. they tend just to be siezed in the manifold itself, not the head.

Yeah that's true Paul. Finger's crossed, but I know how it will be - the most painful way possible!

steptoe wrote:bastards still SNAP from the corrosion in manifold and still need to be removed from head without its hex head offering any assistance. Maybe an oil hole drilled in from the side ??

Thanks for the idea Jonno, but I'm not keen to do that as it could cause other issues, if not now then later down the track, plus getting a high speed drill bit in there would be an effort and a half!

Cheers

Bennie

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:03 pm

Where is Disco and Coxy - Car Go Seal Up converts ??

stenno · Post by **stenno** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:13 pm

No / very restricted airflow getting to the radiator. try it without the bullbar, its cheaper than gaskets etc.
Even try it with the spotlights removed, that should make a significant difference

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:15 pm

fan belt tension is mentioned in the destructions that came with my new high flow thermostats. Starting to think about why one of FROGs mates is heavily into temparature monitoring his SVX. We could at least know the radiator temp as well as the water near the thermostat, knowing it is cool enough to enter the engine to do some good.

YouTube · Post by **El_Freddo** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:56 pm

stenno wrote:No / very restricted airflow getting to the radiator. try it without the bullbar, its cheaper than gaskets etc.
Even try it with the spotlights removed, that should make a significant difference

Yes, but the weather here is too cool to get an accurate reading now. Last time I did the test with the new fan wiring I've installed it was too cool to actually gauge if it was worth the effort. Once a hot day finally came around it was another story and it turned out to be worthwhile.

The gaskets etc need to be done anyway, I don't think this engine has been pulled apart yet or had the water pump replaced... I'd rather spend a bit more money on it and know that things are good than leave something out for the sake of a few dollars only then to have a bigger issue at hand!

steptoe wrote:fan belt tension is mentioned in the destructions that came with my new high flow thermostats.

Already tightened the fan belt, it did make a difference for a while.

Time to wait until I can play with Sunnie, Ruby Scoo's being a hog at the moment

Cheers

Bennie

Tweety · Post by **Tweety** » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:50 pm

Remember Bennie that Tweety had a brand new heavy duty Toyota MR2 radiator twin row job installed for his ea81 compact size 13"x25". Then those extra vents and ducts, one thermo 12 inch fan then two. That digital temp guage measured temp up from the thermstat housing doubling up was the thermatic fan cut in.

And it got hot. the only thing it could be is not enough air flow under the trike body. Thats when a second fan was fitted. An improvement but not enough when towing in 40 degrees.

Then I installed one Kawasaki M/C radiator at the front. A great improvement. With a 82 degrees stat it would slowly climb to 89 where I had the thermoes cutting in. Then I had the brainwave of fitting a second M/C radiator with both ahead of my legs for winter cruising. Now it cools beauifully.

It proved to me that air flow is everything. When you dont ahve a engine fan it compounds the problem in my view.

If in hot weather you turn your heater on fully with full fan and it cools the engine down then you would be in effect doing what I've done. in that case it is airflow and/or radiator replacement time. In 1973 I had a 1966 VC Valiant and had the radiator rodded twice before I finally got a new core- I never looked back after that.

YouTube · Post by **El_Freddo** » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:06 pm

Yeah Tweety! I've got to bust into that one after Ruby Scoo

I'm going to replace the intake manifold gaskets, water pump, thermostat and have the radiator rodded. I just want to do it all at once and not bugger around trying to pin-point the actual cause of the issue. Hopefully it's not a head gasket leak, it could be one in it's infancy but hopefully this isn't the case.

Cheers

Bennie