Changing final drive ratios seems to be unpopular... Why?

2nd Hand Yank · Post by **2nd Hand Yank** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:15 pm

Thinking about how my L Series works with the stock gearing and current tyre size, both how hard the EA82 has to work up hills or in soft sand, as well as what my "crawl speed" is in 1st and FWD/4Hi and 4Lo, even now, I think I could benefit from deeper gearing like 4.11-to-1

I might like to swap in some bigger tyres somewhere down the track. That will place more load on the engine (an EJ22 would help) but also increase my crawl speed which could be undesireable under certain conditions.

I had a look at the EJ22 specs (on wikipedia) and it seems even earlier models had torque peaks above 4000rpm. So this engine likes to rev? If so, wouldn't it be better to be driving in the EJ's powerband?

I've never heard of anyone swapping out the final drive gearing on a Subaru. Is it very difficult?

I still like my 5spd 4wd manual transmission, but would like to try it with deeper gearing, if possible.

I suspect I would find the crawl speed on 27" tyres behind a powerful motor might be annoying. Hmm...

taza · Post by **taza** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:29 pm

The best you can do without swapping to an AWD gearbox is 3.9 diffs. Im pretty sure yours are 3.7
That with an EJ22 would be suitable.

Many people do it often with AWD gearboxes but not so much with EA (FWD and 4WD hi &Lo) to the best of my knowledge.

B00sting · Post by **B00sting** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:30 pm

2nd Hand Yank wrote:Thinking about how my L Series works with the stock gearing and current tyre size, both how hard the EA82 has to work up hills or in soft sand, as well as what my "crawl speed" is in 1st and FWD/4Hi and 4Lo, even now, I think I could benefit from deeper gearing like 4.11-to-1

I might like to swap in some bigger tyres somewhere down the track. That will place more load on the engine (an EJ22 would help) but also increase my crawl speed which could be undesireable under certain conditions.

I had a look at the EJ22 specs (on wikipedia) and it seems even earlier models had torque peaks above 4000rpm. So this engine likes to rev? If so, wouldn't it be better to be driving in the EJ's powerband?

I've never heard of anyone swapping out the final drive gearing on a Subaru. Is it very difficult?

I still like my 5spd 4wd manual transmission, but would like to try it with deeper gearing, if possible.

I suspect I would find the crawl speed on 27" tyres behind a powerful motor might be annoying. Hmm...

I've thought about this also, but haven't done too much research yet.
It is my understanding that it is possible to have another gearset (joey box) for your low range with whatever gears you choose. I don't see why you couldn't have low gearing like a landcruiser does in low range, it might cost you an arm and a leg though.

That's one thing that annoys me about subarus, the lack of lower gearing and aftermarket parts for 4Wding.

It's just like the locker debate, i've read the threads that go on for 20 pages but end up nowhere... It is my understanding that ARB have released an R180 locker, no reason why that couldn't be adapted to fit our subarus if we fit r180 diffs.

EDIT: sorry, went off on a tangent :P but at least its in the right section!

d_generate · Post by **d_generate** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:54 am

I've gone from 3.9 to 4.44, made a huge difference in top gear, way too low like 3,400 at 100kph from about 2,700 originally, but the crappy 1.19 has gone up to maybe 1.25?? so a little help there, actually the low is really nice to use off road and I just leave it there as soon as I hit the dirt but that's in the later awd box.

RSR 555 · Post by **RSR 555** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:47 am

You could use the 4.11 from an EJ D/R AWD box but you'll need to use this in a EJ D/R AWD casing. Not a lot of changes to make them fit, especially if you're going to fit the EJ22

They used the higher ratio due to the larger wheel diameter. Most of the 4.11 boxes are from Forester and Outbacks.

I would use the D/R gearset from the old L box though.

2nd Hand Yank · Post by **2nd Hand Yank** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:44 pm

B00sting wrote:I've thought about this also, but haven't done too much research yet.
It is my understanding that it is possible to have another gearset (joey box) for your low range with whatever gears you choose. I don't see why you couldn't have low gearing like a landcruiser does in low range, it might cost you an arm and a leg though.

That's one thing that annoys me about subarus, the lack of lower gearing and aftermarket parts for 4Wding.

It's just like the locker debate, i've read the threads that go on for 20 pages but end up nowhere... It is my understanding that ARB have released an R180 locker, no reason why that couldn't be adapted to fit our subarus if we fit r180 diffs.

EDIT: sorry, went off on a tangent :P but at least its in the right section!

No worries. I appreciated reading that.

Has anyone swapped in a r180 diff?

2nd Hand Yank · Post by **2nd Hand Yank** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:47 pm

d_generate wrote:I've gone from 3.9 to 4.44, made a huge difference in top gear, way too low like 3,400 at 100kph from about 2,700 originally, but the crappy 1.19 has gone up to maybe 1.25?? so a little help there, actually the low is really nice to use off road and I just leave it there as soon as I hit the dirt but that's in the later awd box.

4.44?

How'd you get your hands on that?

Only in AWD?

2nd Hand Yank · Post by **2nd Hand Yank** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:48 pm

RSR 555 wrote:You could use the 4.11 from an EJ D/R AWD box but you'll need to use this in a EJ D/R AWD casing. Not a lot of changes to make them fit, especially if you're going to fit the EJ22

They used the higher ratio due to the larger wheel diameter. Most of the 4.11 boxes are from Forester and Outbacks.

I would use the D/R gearset from the old L box though.

So I could swap gearsets out of AWD boxes into my 5spd 4wd box?
Hmm... Maybe going all the way to 4.44-to-1 would be fun.

Matt · Post by **Matt** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:09 pm

Agree with RSR 555, tht is the box i was talking about on Saturday

guyph_01 · Post by **guyph_01** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:37 pm

Mwaaahahahahahha

RSR 555 · Post by **RSR 555** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:14 pm

2nd Hand Yank wrote:So I could swap gearsets out of AWD boxes into my 5spd 4wd box?
Hmm... Maybe going all the way to 4.44-to-1 would be fun.

Nope. As I said, you'll need to use the AWD casings. The 4.11 final drive pinion shaft will not work in the rear casing of the PT4wd box. You could use the PT4wd front casings (this would allow you to connect to your EA82 engine but you would still need to use the AWD rear casing, which you'll need to modify crossmember and tailshaft to make it fit into your L.

d_generate · Post by **d_generate** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:08 am

2nd Hand Yank wrote:So I could swap gearsets out of AWD boxes into my 5spd 4wd box?
Hmm... Maybe going all the way to 4.44-to-1 would be fun.

Not as rare as you'd think, all JDM STI's & Legacy GTB's had 4.44's and I think all Aus WRX & STI boxes were 4.44 from about 01 until the 6 speeds, one problem is you need to put I think the crown wheel on a lathe and cut a corner off the teeth or they hit in the box but otherwise no problem.

One advantage of the lower ratio's like the 4.44 is there is less pressure on your box, I've also got a 4.44 box in my Liberty & absolutely love it, it's taken a hell of a pounding and I can still chuck it back to 1st at 30kph but I'm also pretty gentle on the drive train considering the way I hammer the car;)

d_generate · Post by **d_generate** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:09 am

2nd Hand Yank wrote:4.44?

How'd you get your hands on that?
Only in AWD?

Not as rare as you'd think, all JDM STI's & Legacy GTB's had 4.44's and I think all Aus WRX & STI boxes were 4.44 from about 01 until the 6 speeds, one problem is you need to put I think the crown wheel on a lathe and cut a corner off the teeth or they hit in the box but otherwise no problem.

One advantage of the lower ratio's like the 4.44 is there is less pressure on your box, I've also got a 4.44 box in my Liberty & absolutely love it, it's taken a hell of a pounding and I can still chuck it back to 1st at 30kph but I'm also pretty gentle on the drive train considering the way I hammer the car

taza · Post by **taza** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:16 am

d_generate wrote:Not as rare as you'd think, all JDM STI's & Legacy GTB's had 4.44's and I think all Aus WRX & STI boxes were 4.44 from about 01 until the 6 speeds, one problem is you need to put I think the crown wheel on a lathe and cut a corner off the teeth or they hit in the box but otherwise no problem.

One advantage of the lower ratio's like the 4.44 is there is less pressure on your box, I've also got a 4.44 box in my Liberty & absolutely love it, it's taken a hell of a pounding and I can still chuck it back to 1st at 30kph but I'm also pretty gentle on the drive train considering the way I hammer the car

Partly why I want to keep my 4.11 diffs when I get a new box (possibly engine too). Less pressure on the gearset and low range.

ScubyRoo · Post by **ScubyRoo** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:12 am

4.11 and 27's is a great combination, I love it.

Just buy an sf5 forester box - 4.11 with 1.4 (maybe?) low range requires no internal mods... You'll just need an adapter place to fit to your EA and as RSR said, different crossmembers. Then when if you go EJ the gearbox side of things is already done. You do loose your locked centre diff though

... unless you get someone to build you a box like Venom's

taza · Post by **taza** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:40 am

ScubyRoo wrote:4.11 and 27's is a great combination, I love it.

Just buy an sf5 forester box - 4.11 with 1.4 (maybe?) low range requires no internal mods... You'll just need an adapter place to fit to your EA and as RSR said, different crossmembers. Then when if you go EJ the gearbox side of things is already done. You do loose your locked centre diff though ... unless you get someone to build you a box like Venom's

Yes 1.447 Low range.

I find the gearing is good, not rock crawling good but for most applications. The EJ20 though runs outta puff on climbs and below 2200rpm is prone to stalling as it doesn't have enough low end torque.

EJ22 is better though and then theres EJ25 and EZ30

vincentvega · Post by **vincentvega** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:18 pm

I changed my auto from 4.11 to 4.44. Best mod i have ever done to the car.

thunder039 · Post by **thunder039** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:42 pm

what are the benifits of the 4.4r diffs?

Gannon · Post by **Gannon** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:15 pm

All 4cyl auto Outbacks are 4.44

d_generate · Post by **d_generate** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:18 pm

Just need to remember it's got to go on a lathe, Seagull did mine so I can easily find out exactly what and where it needs to have the corner shaved off, apparently it hit's the opposing gear.

Advantage of 4.44 apart from lowering your gearing is that it puts less strain on the box because it's turning over while the engine is revving higher so not as much torque needed to do the same thing at lower rev's, someone else can probably explain it better than me.