eco modding an L series

[steptoe]

on lowering , just think , the Vortex FWD has claimed 0.29 Cd, the 4WD has 0.31 due to raised a little for the extra gear underneath

[spike]

Yes, take a drive with a driving instructor and do this, or even declutch and shift into neutral as you head towards a stop of any kind, lights, intersection etc and you will get raised eyebrow at least as you have lost sudden ability to escape an unforseen need using acceleration and a gear. What Gannon has said about efi switching of the injectors happens about 1500 rpm and above in all efi as far as I understand - watching trip computer fuel consumption real time will confirm. Trip computers derive their data from injector times etc , a challenge to find a trip computer in a carby car

ah yes you must drive the car, and at the lights and more so in the city is definitely required. but who here can honestly say they've needed to accelerate to avoid something coming down a hill on highway/back road

[MTB92]

just because you do something wrong 1000 times and dont get hurt doesn't make it right.

the fact is its not as safe, you have less control, even if you have done it a hundred times before.

and how can you use controlled engine breaking with the engine off?? you aren't meant to coast down hills on your brakes, you are meant to use engine speed to control the car speed.

and you can remove the rear drive shafts, but for the effort is it really worth doing?
also, if you do that i would recommend running it in 4wd to keep the rear diff spinning so everything is lubricated if you plan to use 4wd again. (and that probably defeats the purpose of taking out the driveshafts in the first place)

[steptoe]

and of course you intend to use ethanol blend to cause more grief further down the track - likely a very muddy one at that, just near Poo Ck

[discopotato03]

I think you can put fuel consumption improvements into two categories , physical changes and driving habits .

Physicals - maintain the thing properly so out of tune issues , soft tyre issues , draging brakes , poor wheel alignments don't contribute to poor consumption . Worn out carburettors contribute to poor fuel consumption because they don't maintain OE air fuel ratios . Worn out distributors lead to poor ignition performance as does old leads coils and ailing alternators wiring etc .
Early fuel injection systems didn't do the closed throttle fuel cut thing , I suspect the changeover point was probably with potentiometer type throttle switches . It was probably more of an emissions strategy than an economy one . If you think about it the dynamic CR of an engine on overrun is quite low so the fueling requirement would also be low .
I personally think true sequential injection was what allowed for fine fuel control at low (sub 3000) revs - along with very high voltage ignition systes like all coil on plug (direct fire) systems .
EA engines have truly prehistoric chamber designs compared to anything vaguely modern . MPFI ones are a bit prehistoric though the 4 ECU plug ones are a bit better .
One of the killers with many Subaru flat fours is the lack of exhaust gas scavanging - basically the exhaust ports are too far apart from one bank to the other . Some think this is why Subarus never seemed to have class winning fuel economy .
I remember Gee (Gareth) telling me in the past he used to use cooler water thermostats and advance the timing up , that was mainly to gain performance and I'm not sure how it would work for economy .
Little things like low resistance air filters and cold air intakes can make a difference if the current system is a bit sad . In warm climates omitting water heated inlet manifolds or throttles could gain something .

Driving habits . No point in driving any faster than necessary , higher speeds = greater wind resistance .
IMO the biggie is using the engines low rev torque potential and you can do this by short shifting everywhere . If time isn't important why reve the engine past the point where it can pull the next higher gear when changing up .
If you look like having to stop for traffic etc slow down in advance , you may find you don't have to stop at all .
If you think people in other cars are going to hassle you over going slow find the slowest car nearby and follow that .

Try to avoid short runs and if you live in quiet safe areas a stroll or bike ride over short distances is good for driver and fuel consumption .

A .

[32ford]

try tying a piece of piano wire from your right big toe to your left testical and I am sure your consumption figures will improve. as for solar charging instead of alternator charging, have a look at the sunfoil project on youtube.

[steptoe]

, vouching for the piano wire method Gordon ? Best improvement I ever got was to supply cold air only to a holley 465 tuned lean on primary and nice on secondarys retensioned the vac secondary diafragem spring and watched the vacuum gauge. Another 3 miles per gallon on the trips

[spike]

just because you do something wrong 1000 times and dont get hurt doesn't make it right.

the fact is its not as safe, you have less control, even if you have done it a hundred times before.

and how can you use controlled engine breaking with the engine off?? you aren't meant to coast down hills on your brakes, you are meant to use engine speed to control the car speed.

and you can remove the rear drive shafts, but for the effort is it really worth doing?
also, if you do that i would recommend running it in 4wd to keep the rear diff spinning so everything is lubricated if you plan to use 4wd again. (and that probably defeats the purpose of taking out the driveshafts in the first place)

and this my friends is why i keep running from the board.
i see your new to the concept of the internal combustion engine. i wont go into how it works either because im nice and dont want to blast 90% of what youve said in this thread out of the water, or because im mean and prefer to charge for this service.

when engine braking you use the compression of the engine to slow the vehicle, with me still?
now in your idea when the engine is turned off compression goes away, hence your problem....... there is always compression(not withstanding very few cars the have de compressors for start up) thus there is always the ability to engine brake.

also and i dearly hope you dont drive a normal L series (or maybe i prefer you do so you can buy my spare parts) you cant run them in 4wd all the time if you expect to go without having to do gearboxes once a week.

anyway education over, yes there are 2 main ideas here car and driver modifications. a well serviced engine is a big plus, in fact a lot of this stuff has to do with high performance (hmm half built race engine sitting in the shed:rolleyes::rolleyes:)

i didnt think about the exhaust scavenging but dont think there is much i can do, or that i really want to design just yet

as for the ethanol (had to be steptoe) nope not on this engine, i want it to run for a while now and ive seen the problems with ethanol. My lawn mower though, thats a different story.

[spike]

ok in a slight retraction to my previous statements....... i dont mean ill towards MTB i realised what the 92 stands for and obviously have been hanging out with too many old fart dissing the younglings.

its obvious you dont quite understand whats being said and as such can i recommend you hang back and read everything. i seem to remember being much the same when i came here.......

[MTB92]

read what I said, i know you can engine brake, but how do you control it?

with the engine off you have a binary breaking system (depending what gear you are in to the effect it has). it is either on or off. you need the engine running to be able to control the effect it has.

also, i said if you remove the rear drive shaft, then put it in 4wd so the rear diff keeps rotating so it doesn't rust over time at the top where there is no oil. in normal driving it rotates like 2nd hand yank pointed out (thats the friction bit), but without the drive shafts it just sits there in the same position.

you might be able to make use of your own spares sooner or later if you dont

also, dont talk like i am an idiot, i am not stupid.

[spike]

how much control do you need?
seriously kid you over think way too much, i cannot believe you continue stating you need control when quite frankly there is more than enough control in the system, being able to accelerate down a big hill wont give you more control just a longer jail sentence.

there's 2 rear drive shafts, plural helps in this case. Yes taking the 2 drive shafts out will lower on road friction but driving everywhere with 4wd engaged and the rear diff spinning will probably be equal as well.
Anyway i wont be taking anything of the rear end out, kinda defeats the purpose of having a 4wd on the fly.
your right normally my spares get put on for a reason, say WINNING!!

sure fooled me, now i believe it best we both cut down posting in this thread before it gets locked and becomes no use to anyone who actually cares about the subject namely me.

[spike]

something else that i was reminded of in another thread about fuel

some of these vehicle modifications (timing/compression etc) are much better if you have a premium grade fuel to use them with. MPG (american not relating to Subaru strictly) improvements of up too 5% have been reported, while i am unsure about the other modifications on this vehicle to me 5% is still a lot and translate that into 5 percent less fuel your buying or even the ability to travel 5% further without having to fill up on a long trip. But there is a limit on the cost saving side and it probably only applies to me but still, premium pump fuel can give better results but this does not equate to elf or avgas due to their cost outlays and the fact you can only have minimum amounts at a time, it isnt worth tuning a car to run on it.

We had a Subaru WRX from Canberra the other to look after for the ARC round, every time we serviced we were putting c60 litres of elf in it, it was burning a full tank of fuel doing 2 stages and 3 travels.
So what you might say, its a race car they do high speeds and burn lots of fuel and i would of been on your side. HOWEVER it was the transport stages that were killing it, competition it was doing 15 to the hundred (not that bad) transport stages it was doing 25 to the hundred.
Why though? anti lag systems on the road basically pour fuel into the exhaust to keep the turbo spinning we all know that (if you don't you've just learnt) on the stage when throttle is nearly always open and speeds are kept high the turbo is spinning happily and doesn't need any extra fuel, at 80kmh though there aren't enough gasses being produced to keep the big turbo spinning.

if you are in this predicament i don't believe there is much that can save you, we have looked at the idea of on the fly tuning but that wont work well with the hardware, but there are always trade off and some that are very acceptable. With anti lag turned off you will have lots of lag, but on the road does that matter?? personally i think not, this gentleman thought so.
Even so when we told him the rules about outside assistance if he was to run out of fuel he was taken aback.

[El_Freddo]

if you have to turn ignition off, there is a point where your steering has the potential to lock.

Only if your keys fall out of the ignition barrel. Leave your key in the accessories position and your steering wheel will not lock until you move the key to the lock position.

you dont have speed control thru throttle, rely completely on brakes.... which probably aren't working at this point (this is bad practice, you have less control)

Agreed.

seriously, if you want to save money the things you have mentioned will be pretty insignificant compared to having a healthy running car. if you want to save a bit of coin, just dont buy lunch/a drink/chewing gum/etc once a week and you will save more.

This lunch/drink etc does add up very quickly!!

...you can remove the rear drive shafts, but for the effort is it really worth doing?
also, if you do that i would recommend running it in 4wd to keep the rear diff spinning so everything is lubricated if you plan to use 4wd again. (and that probably defeats the purpose of taking out the driveshafts in the first place)

i said if you remove the rear drive shaft, then put it in 4wd so the rear diff keeps rotating so it doesn't rust over time at the top where there is no oil.

I disagree with this. If there's oil in the diff and the diff is covered from moisture it'll have a thin layer of oil on it protecting the diff. Spare parts always sit around like this without an issue.

and this my friends is why i keep running from the board.
i see your new to the concept of the internal combustion engine.

This is the best way to make a constructive argument turn nasty and have the thread shut down as you've already mentioned above before then posting in large bold black text...

when engine braking you use the compression of the engine to slow the vehicle, with me still?
now in your idea when the engine is turned off compression goes away, hence your problem....... there is always compression(not withstanding very few cars the have de compressors for start up) thus there is always the ability to engine brake.

Err... If you're trying to conserve fuel we presume that when you turn the engine off on down hill runs that you also slip it into neutral or disengage the clutch (ride the clutch pedal). I also presume you're talking about a carbie L series - if you're leaving it in gear with the clutch engaged and the ignition off when "coasting" down hills you'll still be sucking fuel into the engine until the bowl in the carbie is empty - the difference is that 1) the fuel pump is off so no re-supply of the carbie until ignition is on again and 2) the fuel that is in the carbie gets sucked through the engine and ends up as un-burnt fuel in the exhaust.

(hmm half built race engine sitting in the shed:rolleyes::rolleyes:)

Racing engines are built for the purpose of racing - they may be efficient in racing conditions and in racing speak, but put one on the public road and they're often hard to drive as a daily and drink the fuel before you can say WTF?

What you want in an economical daily is torque in the low revs. Early gear changing without labouring the engine on light throttle is the key to better fuel economy as well as what's already been said about the maintenance of your vehicle.

also, dont talk like i am an idiot, i am not stupid.

This is not what this board is about, and members should think about how they treat other members. The old saying of "treat others as you would like to be treated" is very true on the forum

Some of that list on page three simply just can't be achieved with an L series. Yes they are principals but to make the most of them do you think a practical cheap car is the way to go? A smart car might be a better option to begin with.

Cheers

Bennie

[AshR]

Holy bold text batman... wasn't expecting that...

[MTB92]

Only if your keys fall out of the ignition barrel. Leave your key in the accessories position and your steering wheel will not lock until you move the key to the lock position.Bennie

cool, i didnt know that.
my keys fall out anyway, so its not gonna help

I disagree with this. If there's oil in the diff and the diff is covered from moisture it'll have a thin layer of oil on it protecting the diff. Spare parts always sit around like this without an issue.

yeh, you could be right. spares are often kept in a clean dry environment where the one on the road isn't though. i ran without a drive shaft for a while when i had a blown boot. one of the guys who has been involved in the subaru club here for years said he had seen a couple with problems from this happening. i suspect they would have been like that for a significant amount of time, but i think it would be good practice to do anyway.

Spike, if you read what i said (and Bennie has quoted it). i said i cant see the point in taking out a drive shaft, i certainly dont do it myself.

the way i see it, if you are going down a big enough hill that you will save fuel by having the engine off, it is probably a big enough hill that you should be controlling the car speed with the engine (and working brakes). if you feel safe rolling down a hill in neutral with the engine off and fading brakes, thats up to you.

This is not what this board is about, and members should think about how they treat other members. The old saying of "treat others as you would like to be treated" is very true on the forum

exactly. Spike, i never personally insulted you, just said i dissagreed with some of your ideas. An ellement of tact in the way you write can go a long way, if you have an opinion put it forward. but dont attack or belittle the person you dissagree with, you may not be right.

[spike]

ahh el freddo
good point about that carby thing. MY understanding of the technique and there is a full write up on some of the websites devoted to it, engine is turned off car is in a selected gear and the clutch is in to regulate speed (if regulation is require) you take the clutch out and use the engine to break thus regulating speed. But if its still going to suck fuel from the float bowl then yeah.

as for the lunch (and i am kinda of ashamed to say this, the reason i want to save fuel is so i A: dont have to sell the car and buy something else and B: so i can actually afford to eat lunch atm............

this is more about the idea of modifications to the vehicle rather than techniques as said prior many of these are performance modifications. A good way of demonstrating this is to point the similarities of a hypermiling champion car and a salt lake racing car

i wouldn't call any of the things on that list impossible on an L series impracticable yes. Perhaps you can point some out?

as for the smart car i cant afford it for one and apparently they're not the best for hypermiling, better than some but really wont work for me.


as i said in the reason for editing (does anyone actually read that) im having trouble reading my own posts hence the size and font, its not bold just big

[Silverbullet]

All this talk of engine braking down hills is all well and good, if you're in a manual car Coast an auto down a hill and all that goes out the window, you're on the brakes all the way down no matter what you do. And then there's the people I see every day who are on the brakes UP a hill, don't even ask me what they're on because I have no idea.

[El_Freddo]

Fair call Spike.

If you're really in it for economy, remove the rear diff, drive shafts and the rear section of the prop/tail shaft to help with weight reduction. It will also help with reduced rotational momentum.

The vacuum gauge is a great idea, once you get to know how to drive to keep it in the economy zone you probably won't need it for any more than the odd reference to reinforce what you're doing.

The panel gap reduction, electrical tape will work until you open a door. Rubber strips of some description might be better to try out.

You can't change your timing advance with a switch, it's done mechanically while the vehicle is stationary. While your driving the vacuum created via how heavy your right foot is on the throttle pedal does the advancing for you, without it your car will feel like you're trying to drive a brick around.

The grill block - L series with a poorly kept cooling system need as much radiator air flow as possible!

The idea of no alternator is just ridiculous! I'd be looking for a bigger alternator so it's not working as hard as the smaller one, just my theory, no hard evidence on that one. I know I wouldn't want to be stuck with a flat battery!

The others are probably a lot of effort for a little gain...

Cheers

Bennie

[discopotato03]

I think the most constructive way to view an L/EA82 is as from a different era . Fuel was not as expensive as it is now and emissions were less stringent . It would be flat out impossible to make a std one even brand new meet todays ADRs .
I believe the L Series spanned 1985 to 1994 so the oldest are 27 yrs old and the newest 18 . Old enough to vote ?
Take it to the grave . EA82s are basically a cam box SOHC conversion on an EA81 and at times I think they created more problems than they solved .
The bathtub chambers and porting in most EAs is prehistoric but they do make reasonable torque at low revs .
If anything EA82s stayed around a bit too long and aside from MPFI heads they never got any serious development mechanically speaking . They really needed better heads and piston crown designs but FHI for whatever reasons didn't go there . Really something like scaled down first Gen Lib heads would have been the ticket but the final answer was to go clean sheet with the first EJs .

A .

[spike]

All this talk of engine braking down hills is all well and good, if you're in a manual car Coast an auto down a hill and all that goes out the window, you're on the brakes all the way down no matter what you do. And then there's the people I see every day who are on the brakes UP a hill, don't even ask me what they're on because I have no idea.

well yes it is, and yes your right
you can get a manual lock up kit (not necessarily for the L series) which make it possible but serious if your going to go down that road switch to a manual.......

Fair call Spike.

If you're really in it for economy, remove the rear diff, drive shafts and the rear section of the prop/tail shaft to help with weight reduction. It will also help with reduced rotational momentum.

The vacuum gauge is a great idea, once you get to know how to drive to keep it in the economy zone you probably won't need it for any more than the odd reference to reinforce what you're doing.

The panel gap reduction, electrical tape will work until you open a door. Rubber strips of some description might be better to try out.

You can't change your timing advance with a switch, it's done mechanically while the vehicle is stationary. While your driving the vacuum created via how heavy your right foot is on the throttle pedal does the advancing for you, without it your car will feel like you're trying to drive a brick around.

The grill block - L series with a poorly kept cooling system need as much radiator air flow as possible!

The idea of no alternator is just ridiculous! I'd be looking for a bigger alternator so it's not working as hard as the smaller one, just my theory, no hard evidence on that one. I know I wouldn't want to be stuck with a flat battery!

The others are probably a lot of effort for a little gain...

Cheers

Bennie

yep, yep, yep all options (but not for me as i need it for the driveway)

vacuum gauge will probably be my next mod

for my normal driving i use the drivers door and the boot most of the time so sealing up all the others would be possible, as for other people they have to make there mind up

your right about the switch BUT without giving too much away, you said about the vacuum you can change the vacuum at any time but sucking on it basically (i don't recommend someone sitting there with a piece of spaghetti sucking) this is what im working with but until its further designed to the point of patenting.

yes.... in summer im screwed with this one, at the moment its running fairly cool. Will have to look into it further.

well the idea of no alternator for me is ridiculous, for others it isnt. Id work with maybe a smaller size but allow for other things to take over helping it, solar, peltor on the cat, as well as lowering the load thats required, LED lights, no sound system all that sort of stuff.

something like the body under tray is probably worth while especially when you consider it rather as a bash plate two jobs for the price of one, the cam back is probably in the same area. But yeah its all effort