Touring Wagon - Will not start

GunFactory · Post by **GunFactory** » Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:50 pm

Hey all,

Got back from a great camping trip near Ulladulla yesterday afternoon, however for the last 20km of the trip passing through Albion Park and all the way back to Wollongong the car was refusing to idle, I had to keep it in neutral while stationary and keep the revs above 1600 or so to stop it spluttering to a stop.

Today I haven't been able to get the car to start at all. I had it running for about 2min early this morning with the choke on, I attempted to perform the rev and draw-though business on the carbie incase there was something blocking but eventually it died.

Since then it will crank but not catch at all, despite using some engine starter, a bit of fuel and choke. The fuel pump is delivering fuel. The car just had new spark plugs and points installed as well as a tuneup. I refreshed the connections to the battery but no change. Both the Choke and Accelerator are delivering fuel into the throat of the carbie.

It sounds the same as when my original fuel pump was dead, cranking and not catching as if fuel-less.

but the issue that brought me here felt exactly the same as a problem solved by performing the rag over the carbie trick... problem now is I cant even run it to perform this.

Anyone got any thoughts as to what could be up?

Also does any one know if NRMA will tow you from your home? or do you literally need to be on the road - I cant seem to find anything on there site.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Eli

Silverbullet · Post by **Silverbullet** » Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:15 pm

You said the fuel pump is delivering fuel, how have you checked this? The way I used to is take the hose off the carbie, put a ice cream container under it and click the key over (don't crank it though) to make sure there is a good stream of fuel pouring out. Your problem sounds a bit like a fuel filter blockage to me...unless you've already changed it/them, in that case I have no idea

GunFactory · Post by **GunFactory** » Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:20 pm

Silverbullet wrote:You said the fuel pump is delivering fuel, how have you checked this? The way I used to is take the hose off the carbie, put a ice cream container under it and click the key over (don't crank it though) to make sure there is a good stream of fuel pouring out. Your problem sounds a bit like a fuel filter blockage to me...unless you've already changed it/them, in that case I have no idea

Hey Silverbullet,

Yeah I tested it in exactly the same way, seemed to be delivering a fair amount of fuel into my container.

The Fuel filter had a little silt in it, I took it off and drained the fuel from the line on the engine side out and then reconnected it all. I don't have a spare on me, but I could sort one out at some point. I'm not sure exactly what constitutes a dirty/blocked filter... I suppose its one of the cheapest things to replace!

Post by **Bantum** » Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:25 pm

Check your Ignition coil + capacitor (condensor) ...

If it's still the original one, it could well be worn out - so time for new one ...

GunFactory · Post by **GunFactory** » Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:57 pm

Bantum wrote:Check your Ignition coil + capacitor (condensor) ...
If it's still the original one, it could well be worn out - so time for new one ...

Cheers Bantum,

I was going to ask something along those lines - could there just be no spark.. Any way of checking these without multimeter type equipment....

555Ron · Post by **555Ron** » Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:03 pm

GunFactory, you can take a spark plug out and rest it on the block somewhere. Have someone crank it over and check to see if you have a healthy spark. Make sure you keep it away from fuel vapours!

Post by **Alex** » Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:04 pm

id be replacing the fuel filter too.

To check the spark you can take off a lead one at a time (spark plug end) and get someone to crank the car over, earth out the bare end on a grounded piece of bare body or something similar, you should see the spark jump over.

alex

GunFactory · Post by **GunFactory** » Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:39 pm

555Ron wrote:GunFactory, you can take a spark plug out and rest it on the block somewhere. Have someone crank it over and check to see if you have a healthy spark. Make sure you keep it away from fuel vapours!

Alex wrote:id be replacing the fuel filter too.

To check the spark you can take off a lead one at a time (spark plug end) and get someone to crank the car over, earth out the bare end on a grounded piece of bare body or something similar, you should see the spark jump over.

alex

Thanks guys I'll give that a go! And grab a fuel filter.

Cliff R · Post by **Cliff R** » Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:02 pm

What year model is the car again (cant remember)
You mention you changed the points so is it about 1982/3 ?
I ask as mine is an 82 model and I can only find a fuel filter in the engine bar.
Is there another fuel filter on the earlier models and if so where is it, how big is it, what does it look like.
How is the resistor on the coil ?
I have had one of those go before and things didnt run either.

steptoe · Post by **steptoe** » Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:45 pm

spark can be points closed - check you have gap finger nail thickness. points can also ash up, still hap gap but be dirty. Both can happen if capacitor is RS, you didn't clean protctive wax coating off contacts when installed, or the resistor thing in the ceramic is not reducing voltage, or you did not grease the cam lobe with new points.

no real mechanics available will come to your place to start or tow - surely , maybe not diagnose ??? might depend on service person

you can just safely hold coil lead at dizzy end a few mm from earth when cranking to see if coil has some zap if points are fine

RSR 555 · Post by **RSR 555** » Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:07 am

Can't remember if the 1982 model MY had the second filter or not but have a look underneath the back near the fuel pump and check/replace this filter too.

If you needed to put a rag over the top of the carby, it sounds like there is/was an air leak in the manifold. I'd check all your hoses and fittings.

I would definitely be checking the basics, like compression, spark and fuel. Easy way to do it without all the tools.
1) Compression, you can do quick test by listening to how the engine turns over when using the starter motor.
2)Spark, check the spark from the coil lead, then test from each lead (a spark plug helps, so you don't have to remove any)
3) Fuel, with the engine off, look down the carby and flick the throttle a couple of times and see if you see fuel squirting down the throut.

GunFactory · Post by **GunFactory** » Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:05 am

Hey,

Thanks for all the suggestions and tips. I haven't had anything to do with the ignition system yet - ill have to do a bit of reading in my manual, as I can only identify the coil, I'm not sure what the condenser is or the resistor on coil. Derp.

I will be testing the spark today. The car is a 1983 model, and as far as I'm aware (ive had a pretty good look) there is only one fuel filter, located in front of the LHS passenger rear wheel.

Cheers,

Oh and RSR

RSR 555 wrote: If you needed to put a rag over the top of the carby, it sounds like there is/was an air leak in the manifold. I'd check all your hoses and fittings.

I noticed when I sprayed some carbie cleaner into the carbie that i could see some of the cleaner leaking from the outside - perhaps one of the gaskets or seals had had it. Could this be presenting an issue>?

Subydoug · Post by **Subydoug** » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:04 am

If its leaking air around a seal then yes that could be a problem. When you sprayed fuel into the carby did it fire at all? Deffinately have a look at your plugs. Im still using an old coil on my 1982 tourer and the instant the plugs get a little bit wet the cylinder stops firing. (new one on order)

What Id do is pull all the plugs out, make sure they are clean and dry (edge of a rag in the gap works well), crank the engine over and observe a plug. Make sure you have a good strong spark, should jump at least 8-10mm. If you dont have a spark you'l need to trouble shoot the ignition system. One common spot Ive had dry joints is where the ignition goes into the disty.
If you do have spark, Put all the plugs back in, choke the carby, put a splash of fuel down the carby (coke lid or so) and crank it. If your right and that seal is gone the motor will be running lean which will make it harder to start cold. (reason for the coke lid of fuel) If it does start and continue running you can check your seal very easly by squirting water on the joint. If the engine stumbles when you do that the seal is gone. If the engine fires but wont start, chances are the seal is so bad that your not getting enough fuel.

If thats the case your going to need to pick up some gaskets. I managed to get some locally in perth from Veale auto parts but they cost an arm and a leg. Online you can get them pretty cheap, just make sure they are OEM. Id also be looking at getting some intake manifold gaskets at the same time.

Regards

Doug

GunFactory · Post by **GunFactory** » Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:15 am

Subydoug wrote:If its leaking air around a seal then yes that could be a problem. When you sprayed fuel into the carby did it fire at all? Deffinately have a look at your plugs. Im still using an old coil on my 1982 tourer and the instant the plugs get a little bit wet the cylinder stops firing. (new one on order)

What Id do is pull all the plugs out, make sure they are clean and dry (edge of a rag in the gap works well), crank the engine over and observe a plug. Make sure you have a good strong spark, should jump at least 8-10mm. If you dont have a spark you'l need to trouble shoot the ignition system. One common spot Ive had dry joints is where the ignition goes into the disty.
If you do have spark, Put all the plugs back in, choke the carby, put a splash of fuel down the carby (coke lid or so) and crank it. If your right and that seal is gone the motor will be running lean which will make it harder to start cold. (reason for the coke lid of fuel) If it does start and continue running you can check your seal very easly by squirting water on the joint. If the engine stumbles when you do that the seal is gone. If the engine fires but wont start, chances are the seal is so bad that your not getting enough fuel.

If thats the case your going to need to pick up some gaskets. I managed to get some locally in perth from Veale auto parts but they cost an arm and a leg. Online you can get them pretty cheap, just make sure they are OEM. Id also be looking at getting some intake manifold gaskets at the same time.

Regards

Doug

Hey Doug,

Thanks for the feedback. Greatly appreciated!

When i did put fuel down the carbie there was no change, the engine didn't catch at all. On every other day the car will start with the first turn of the key and a bit of choke, in a matter of seconds.

I did crank it with the coil lead off and onto bare metal this morning, there was a spark, however I didn't note the length. Will investigate further this afternoon.

When you say to check if the plugs are dry, do you mean that they could be wet with fuel?

Also when you say 'dry joints' (ignition to dizzy) what exactly do you mean? or rather, what is a dry joint?

I was thinking of getting a carbie rebuild kit.. there are gaskets in them i'm pretty sure. I'll have a hunt around for some intake manifold gaskets.

Post by **Alex** » Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:21 am

at the other extreme, timing belt jumped afew teeth?

Subydoug · Post by **Subydoug** » Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:35 am

Alex wrote:at the other extreme, timing belt jumped afew teeth?

It will be an ea81 with pushrods.

Yes, wet with fuel. the fuel on the plugs will inhibit the spark.

A dry joint is where a connecton is made, but it has a high resistance(relative) across the joint. Usual cause is corrosion and dirt. Wire joins that are twist, insulation jobs are notorious for it. The connection Im talking about is the one on the side of the Dissy. If you pop the rotor cap off you can see the wire coming from the points to the Ignition feed wire. There is a bolt going through a plastic insulator which clamps it all together. Give that a clean, just be careful to not get crap onto the points below,

Regards

Doug

GunFactory · Post by **GunFactory** » Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:44 am

Subydoug wrote:It will be an ea81 with pushrods.

Yes, wet with fuel. the fuel on the plugs will inhibit the spark.

A dry joint is where a connecton is made, but it has a high resistance(relative) across the joint. Usual cause is corrosion and dirt. Wire joins that are twist, insulation jobs are notorious for it. The connection Im talking about is the one on the side of the Dissy. If you pop the rotor cap off you can see the wire coming from the points to the Ignition feed wire. There is a bolt going through a plastic insulator which clamps it all together. Give that a clean, just be careful to not get crap onto the points below,

Regards

Doug

Thanks Doug, really helpful! Hope I can make some progress on this.

In other news I called NRMA and they said they will come and try and get the car going before towing to my mechanic or just come and tow - pretty happy that I have a backup plan.

Post by **Alex** » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:21 am

Subydoug wrote:It will be an ea81 with pushrods.

haha yeah whoops my bad!

RSR 555 · Post by **RSR 555** » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:25 am

GunFactory wrote:I noticed when I sprayed some carbie cleaner into the carbie that i could see some of the cleaner leaking from the outside - perhaps one of the gaskets or seals had had it. Could this be presenting an issue>?

Yep, sounds like one (or both) of your carby to manifold gasket has gone. There is 2 gaskets there, with a bakelite spacer plate in between. There is also water going to the base of the carby, and if these gaskets are leaking, then you could be having water/coolant go inside the inlet manifold. This will definitely stop the car from running or starting.

One thing I'd try, is some "start you basterd" or "Aerostart" down the carby. Make sure you're not standing over the top of the carby when you do this, and have someone turn over the engine while you spray some of this stuff down the carby. This is very volatile fluid and will start the car if you have spark.

Lastly, I would get the NRMA to tow the car over to a mechanic (if you don't have tools with you?) and replace those gaskets and they can check other stuff for you.

M0rpH · Post by **M0rpH** » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:31 am

Is there a module inside a points dizzy like there is inside an electronic dizzy?
Our electronic one on the brumby shit itself not long ago and was displaying similar symptoms.

There was another issue with a vac line or valve that displayed similar symptoms but i will wait for an answer on the above first, i would need pics to explain.

Off the top of my head, if you are seeing the carby stuff you are spraying in the carby leak out and it is not the dribble off the spray can, then i rekon you have a drama.

Got any pics?