1985 duel range DL

boca · Post by **boca** » Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:04 pm

Hi Guys
This is my first post on this site. I was hoping that some one could help me with the above Subaru. I need to replace a front hub and cvjoint because I have no drive in fwd ,but I can see the front passenger side hub bolt turning so I am thinking the spline is striped. I was wondering what other hub and cv would fit this model eg leone , brumby.
The other question is was what is the go with the duel range and differential lock how dose it work.?
This car is a farm car , We have another subaru outwest that we use for spotlighting and are amazed by its reliability I have left it once for 1 & 1/2 years with the same fuel , Hooked up the battery heard the fuel pump working, with the second turn of the key it fired up, this car is going to snap in half from rust before the engine fails love them.
Any help would be appreciated

julian · Post by **julian** » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:53 pm

Have you tried tightening the hub bolt? I can't think what kind of force would be required to bust the spline!!!
When you say:

boca wrote:The other question is was what is the go with the duel range and differential lock how dose it work.?

Are you asking- how does the dual range work, or how does the differential work, or how does a differential lock work?

boca · Post by **boca** » Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:14 am

Hi Julian
I was asking if the diff lock works by splinting the power in the transfer case 50/50 front and rear , is the rear limited slip or dose most of the power go to the wheel with least resistance eg the one that is stuck in the mud.
regards Boca

KiwiL · Post by **KiwiL** » Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:00 am

boca wrote:Hi Julian
I was asking if the diff lock works by splinting the power in the transfer case 50/50 front and rear , is the rear limited slip or dose most of the power go to the wheel with least resistance eg the one that is stuck in the mud.
regards Boca

Rear in a DL is open. The car is FWD normally, when you select 4wd hi range the coupling supplies power to the back as well, in a 50:50 split; there's no centre diff. Same in low range 4wd, except the reduction gears are also engaged.

BRAT87 · Post by **BRAT87** » Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:02 am

Hi Boca,

From what I have found, the rear is limited slip. And the power seems to go to the wheel with the least resistance when you are stuck in the mud. I think when the lever is in place the power is split 50/50 on a brumby, well that's what it seems like when you are using it.

Hope this helps.

jesse

Gannon · Post by **Gannon** » Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:12 pm

BRAT87 wrote:Hi Boca,

From what I have found, the rear is limited slip. And the power seems to go to the wheel with the least resistance when you are stuck in the mud.

Doesnt that contradict itself?

All L series and MY / Brumby had an open rear diff. Only RX turbo and Vortex XT got LSD

BRAT87 · Post by **BRAT87** » Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:18 pm

No. When you a driving along with the lever engaged it is split 50/50. When you climb a steep uneven terrain hill you will find that the rear wheels act like a limited slip diff. If you get stuck in the mud, the only wheels spinning will be the ones with the least amount resistance if there is enough resistance to prevent both wheels from spinning. that's how most LSD diffs work unless you have a diff lock.

MuZ · Post by **MuZ** » Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:55 pm

BRAT87 wrote:No. When you a driving along with the lever engaged it is split 50/50. When you climb a steep uneven terrain hill you will find that the rear wheels act like a limited slip diff. If you get stuck in the mud, the only wheels spinning will be the ones with the least amount resistance if there is enough resistance to prevent both wheels from spinning. that's how most LSD diffs work unless you have a diff lock.

This is right, with an LSD a certain amount of traction is needed to keep both wheels spinning, if one wheel has less traction than required to keep the limited slip center engaged, that wheel will recive all the power.

There is a way around this in vechicles where the handbrake brakes both rear wheels seperatly, like the older hiluxs. If you lifted a rear wheel you could gradually apply the hand brake untill there was enough resistance to get both wheels spinning.

boca · Post by **boca** » Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:01 pm

Hi Guys thanks for the input. I was wondering if the 5 speed dual range have a different system then the standard 4wds without dual range as it said in one of the blurbs that it had a differential lock.
Any Ideas about the hub and cv fitting the dl. eg will a leone cv fit mine

YouTube · Post by **El_Freddo** » Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:17 pm

julian wrote:Have you tried tightening the hub bolt? I can't think what kind of force would be required to bust the spline!!!

Not force, rust! It happens from time to time!

Gannon wrote:All L series and MY / Brumby had an open rear diff. Only RX turbo and Vortex XT got LSD

Yep, unless it's been swapped at some stage...

Guys, an LSD will allow both rear wheels to almost lock up if in good condition, both wheels need to be in contact with the ground for the LSD to work. If you have a wheel spinning in the mud without any sign of lock up or power being transferred to the stationary wheel you've got yourself an open diff - or a very very worn LSD. I'd be going with an open diff.

boca wrote:Hi Guys thanks for the input. I was wondering if the 5 speed dual range have a different system then the standard 4wds without dual range as it said in one of the blurbs that it had a differential lock.
Any Ideas about the hub and cv fitting the dl. eg will a leone cv fit mine

What you've read is either about the vortex gearbox that is infact AWD with a diff lock. The other one you could have read about is the single range 4wd - it uses the same mechanism to engage the 4wd system - vacuum diaphragm. The single range units have a button on top of the gearstick instead of the lever.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Bennie

NachaLuva · Post by **NachaLuva** » Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:15 pm

MuZ wrote:This is right, with an LSD a certain amount of traction is needed to keep both wheels spinning, if one wheel has less traction than required to keep the limited slip center engaged, that wheel will recive all the power.

Thats not correct, an LSD will not allow one wheel to spin freely, think of the name...Limited Slip Diff: limited slip

The torque will be split between the wheels, depending on the type of LSD & its condition, as stated above.

Gannon · Post by **Gannon** » Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:56 pm

BRAT87 wrote:No. When you a driving along with the lever engaged it is split 50/50. When you climb a steep uneven terrain hill you will find that the rear wheels act like a limited slip diff. If you get stuck in the mud, the only wheels spinning will be the ones with the least amount resistance if there is enough resistance to prevent both wheels from spinning. that's how most LSD diffs work unless you have a diff lock.

That is so confusing my head hurts

If you are talking about the 4wd lever that engages the rear wheels it has nothing to do with an LSD.

How do you figure that the rear wheels "act like a limited slip diff"???

Do you have a rear LSD in your subaru?

The last bit I think is right, but badly worded

tambox · Post by **tambox** » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:24 pm

Carefull how you describe LSD's as there are many types that fit a Subie. They all work slightly differently.
A viscous will spin both wheels until you go past the load point of the coupling, then one will spin.
The clutch type, 1, 1.5 and 2 all work slightly diffently, look them up. Basically these have a slight preload to make both wheels spin, then have a locking system that locks them under load only. As soon as you back off, you loose the locking on a 1 or 1.5(common type). But a 2 will stay locked under deceleration. Never used a 2, but done many miles with a 1.5

Simple?, not really.

boca · Post by **boca** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:36 am

hi guys
thanks for all the reply's. I have had 4 Subaru through out my life and they where all great cars. I had a landcruiser HJ 75 for a while and these had a standard diff . I was for ever getting stuck with it as the wheel with the least amount of traction would get all the power ( useless for a 4wd vehicle) . I had to replace the rear diff and for an extra few $ more, got a LSD. With this I would not have to run 4wd where I had to before the diff. The subaru on the farm can get itself out of trouble It only lacks ground clearance . Alot of cockies use the lighter Suzuki than the heaver cruisers on the farm as they don't sink so deep in soggy ground and can get them selves out of trouble.
I have found that the touring wagon have different cvs as the engine is a mpi the hubside is the same but the gearbox side spline is not.

boca · Post by **boca** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:56 pm

Just to get back to the cv axel . Will a cv from a 2wd leone fit my 1985 or do I have to get one from a 4wd This may sound like a silly ? but I may be silly.
If the above answer is no I would be looking for any manual L series 85-92( but not the touring wagon ):)

YouTube · Post by **El_Freddo** » Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:31 pm

boca wrote:Just to get back to the cv axel . Will a cv from a 2wd leone fit my 1985 or do I have to get one from a 4wd This may sound like a silly ? but I may be silly.

The MPFI and MPFI turbos have 25 spline diff output shafts.

Everything carby and MPFI auto have 23 spline diff output shafts.

The touring wagons can be either - it all depends on which engine they've got! And I'm hoping that this is the same for the pre '87 models as well.

I'm not sure exactly which one you need, but from this you should be able to work it out!

Cheers

Bennie

BRAT87 · Post by **BRAT87** » Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:24 pm

NachaLuva wrote:Thats not correct, an LSD will not allow one wheel to spin freely, think of the name...Limited Slip Diff: limited slip

The torque will be split between the wheels, depending on the type of LSD & its condition, as stated above.

Well my brother has a brand new SR5 hilux and on the weekend we turned a corner in the wet and it managed to muster a wheel spin of only 1 wheel. not both as you are describing. The car is only 1 monht old and I'm pretty sure the SR5 has a LSD. My father has a 79 series toyota land cruiser with the V8 diesel pretty sure that has an LSD however it has always managed to only do a single spin in the wet or when off road, very rarely does it spin both rear wheels, pretty sure that has an LSD too.

I owned a D22 nissan Navara STR and that had an LSD diff, which worked properly most of the time but I did have it do a single spinner as well when I was off road and there was too much resistance on one of the wheels. Often when the rear wheels were off camber.

I also owned a short wheel base pajero which also had an LSD and it was the same behaviour with that 4WD too.

the only time I have seen a diff constantly use both wheels no matter what type of scenario was when the diff had some sort of a locker.

you must have a pretty special LSD if it constantly uses both wheels evenly.

Rodeo4jake · Post by **Rodeo4jake** » Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:35 pm

The explanation for these occurrences lies in the name of the diffs. Limited slip, meaning it will limit slippage, not stop it completely. I can go into describing the mechanicals inside & how they work if people would like. I have rebuilt both cone & clutch type LSDs so I know how both work.
If they never slipped your tyres would squeal on cornering & in wet weather on roundabouts & the like the car would tend to plow straight ahead. Also there would be no market for diff locks for 4x4s or spools for the drag race guys if they never slipped.

Cheers Jake

ajcmbrown · Post by **ajcmbrown** » Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:57 pm

Absolutely 100% correct Jake!
You can get "some" wheelspin with a LSD but only until the clutch packs begin to work and effectively give you about 65% locked diff, or as the name implies "Limited Slip"
This will never replace a locked diff and as Jake said, it would be dangerous to drive on the road because the rear wheels locked to turn at the same speed would either "push" the front wheels into understeer, or if enough throttle is applied, huge amounts of oversteer.
When grip is lost on one wheel, the clutch packs transfer some (not all) the drive to the wheel that has grip, and that is the benefit of having an LSD in the first place.
An open diff will allow one wheel to spin wildly as long as there is enough power to maintain the wheelspin. A limited slip will not.
Many of the late model 4X4's are only a marginal LSD at best, talk to any diff specialist and he will tell you how many Ford Rangers he has made into a real LSD by using XR8 clutch packs, there is a guy in Phillip ACT who does it very regularly....for the local Ford dealer!

YouTube · Post by **El_Freddo** » Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:59 pm

BRAT87 wrote:Well my brother has a brand new SR5 hilux and on the weekend we turned a corner in the wet and it managed to muster a wheel spin of only 1 wheel. not both as you are describing.

Only one wheel would indicate either an open diff or a very worn LSD - it's not hard to spin a single wheel in the wet! Some even manage two with an open diff by manipulating the weight transfer of the vehicle

BRAT87 wrote:The car is only 1 monht old and I'm pretty sure the SR5 has a LSD.

Either it's a real tame LSD for the everyday person that doesn't know exactly what they're about or it's an option on this model that he may not have ticked OR the dealership hasn't delivered on.

BRAT87 wrote:My father has a 79 series toyota land cruiser with the V8 diesel pretty sure that has an LSD however it has always managed to only do a single spin in the wet or when off road, very rarely does it spin both rear wheels, pretty sure that has an LSD too.

An LSD doesn't always mean that both wheels will spin, if the load of the LSD has exceeded it's pre-load setting it will let go and act like an open diff. As the diff wears (clutch type) this setting will become less and less.

BRAT87 wrote:I owned a D22 nissan Navara STR and that had an LSD diff, which worked properly most of the time but I did have it do a single spinner as well when I was off road and there was too much resistance on one of the wheels. Often when the rear wheels were off camber.

I also owned a short wheel base pajero which also had an LSD and it was the same behaviour with that 4WD too.

the only time I have seen a diff constantly use both wheels no matter what type of scenario was when the diff had some sort of a locker.

you must have a pretty special LSD if it constantly uses both wheels evenly.

An LSD will be working even when you don't know it. It's not the be all and end all maximum traction device for a single axle as it will allow traction to the wheel with least resistance to a point.

Anyway, I'm sure there's some terminology that we're all arguing about that puts us on the same side.

LSDs are a great traction advantage over an open diff but can still spin one wheel if pushed too hard.

Also, clutch LSDs need regular maintenance to keep things tight and operational as they should be for best performance.

Cheers

Bennie